A Federation of "Equals" - A Danubian Federation Interative AAR

[theAhawk]

Some points of information:

Being the President Minister of Hungary doesn't protect you from being ejected from congress.

((Especially since it bars you from personally being a member of Congress...))

Being the President-Minister of Hungary protects me from being ejected from Congress because I am still permitted to sit in Parliament per my position and I cannot be removed from being President-Minister of Hungary by the national government.

((Um, as far as I can tell, the Constitution does not explicitly give anyone the right to address Congress, so no to the former, and no to the latter too, since I can see at least one article which may give Congress powers to remove you from office.))

Suez is not a state, Suez is a free city.

((Free Cities are also States, just ones with reduced representation in the Council.))

 

[Revan529]

With a cultural campaign being instituted by the socialist republicans, the campaign runs into hurdles in the Venetian Mainland.

CLASHES CAUSE TENSION IN PADUA

In isolated incidents in Padua, the socialist republican cultural campaign has hit a wall of sporadic and violent resistance. While there is no clear organisation to these incidents their frequency is too high to be simple criminality. The first incident was when a rally was broken up by a large mob of local workers. When police arrived to break up the conflict, many of the protesters and mobsters had fled the scene leaving a few injured fellows and a single fatality, who was actually killed by a flag pole dropped on his head in the panic. After clearing up the scene, it was expected that the issue would stop there.

However just two days later a bar fight ensued between two local men and a group of the republicans who had reportedly been singing the internationale. Both groups were detained and will face trial soon. Only the next day however a bonfire was started by a group of sashed men, burning the recently produced propaganda of the republican campaign. While the bonfire was still burning, the men proceeded to place posters over the various other works that had been placed around the town. Today the police are out in more numbers than usual in Padua, specifically to keep the peace during the town's current troubles.

Just yesterday though, the most grievous crime yet was discovered. A man in a Phrygian cap was found in a gutter with several stab wounds, the perpetrator or perpetrators had clearly fled the scene as not a soul was in sight when the police discovered the body. The discovering of such a crime having occurred shows an definitive increased tension. However between who is not yet certain, clearly the targets have been the socialist republicans however the perpetrators could be from a variety of groups or none at all. Despite the goings on most locals aren't aware or don't care about the socialist republican campaign and think little of the crime on their doorstep. As one Paduan so simply said when we investigated "Crime happens, don't need a reason."
​

((GM approved))

One Imperialist says in jest

"Perhaps Signore Banik should ban these Phrygians as he bans referendums; unless of course, he fears real violence less than he does imaginary fears of the same."

 

[Keperry]

One Imperialist says in jest

"Perhaps Signore Banik should ban these Phrygians as he bans referendums; unless of course, he fears real violence less than he does imaginary fears of the same."

That is profoundly wrong on every level, and it is both a sign of sheer unbridled idiocy on your part, and on the part of the monarchist-treason movement as a whole, as well as massive disrespect for the lives of the republican martyrs of Padua.

Nonetheless, I know that these heinous monarchist crimes, however terrible they may be, will never deter my fellow republicans in their efforts to preserve the liberty and equality so dear to Danubians and save the country from monarchist tyranny. Indeed, we will only be encouraged, as these crimes are a clear sign that the monarchists have no valid arguments to make peacefully and as a result can only resort to violence and murder. Monarchism is utterly illegitimate and is incompatible with Danubia on both a practical and ideological level, and soon all the people who have been brainwashed by monarchist lies and propaganda will awake from their nightmare and return to the true light of republicanism. Through the will of the people, Danubia shall be saved from tyranny and it will be saved from monarchy.

 

[Dadarian]

That is profoundly wrong on every level, and it is both a sign of sheer unbridled idiocy on your part, and on the part of the monarchist-treason movement as a whole, as well as massive disrespect for the lives of the republican martyrs of Padua.

Nonetheless, I know that these heinous monarchist crimes, however terrible they may be, will never deter my fellow republicans in their efforts to preserve the liberty and equality so dear to Danubians and save the country from monarchist tyranny. Indeed, we will only be encouraged, as these crimes are a clear sign that the monarchists have no valid arguments to make peacefully and as a result can only resort to violence and murder. Monarchism is utterly illegitimate and is incompatible with Danubia on both a practical and ideological level, and soon all the people who have been brainwashed by monarchist lies and propaganda will awake from their nightmare and return to the true light of republicanism. Through the will of the people, Danubia shall be saved from tyranny and it will be saved from monarchy.

This just in - Phrygians declare humour treasonous. Tomorrow it is expected Herr Mendel will declare all smiles sympathetic to the monarchy and to be declared treasonous.​

 

[LatinKaiser]

The recent violence in Italy, which is the result of militant republican groups in the area inciting unrest, is very concerning. These recent incidents in Padua further illustrate the failure of the government to unite the Danubian people. Now, while many may say that the monarchist debate is what is dividing the Federation, the debate is not what has caused needless acts of violence in Italy. What Danubia needs is a strong leader, a strong monarch, to bring her people together once more. A strong, impartial monarch would send a message of national unity to those abroad and would ease tensions at home. What Danubia needs, now more than ever, is a strong Head of State, someone who is a just and respected leader. The obvious choice is, of course, His Imperial and Royal Majesty Franz Ferdinand von Habsburg-Lorraine. Now is the time for Danubia to unite as one! Now is the time for strong leadership! Now is the time for stability! Now is the time for Franz Ferdinand to take his rightful place as Head of State in a constitutional monarchy.

~ Franz Urckarte, Deputy from Austria

 

[Keperry]

The recent violence in Italy, which is the result of militant republican groups in the area inciting unrest, is very concerning. These recent incidents in Padua further illustrate the failure of the government to unite the Danubian people. Now, while many may say that the monarchist debate is what is dividing the Federation, the debate is not what has caused needless acts of violence in Italy. What Danubia needs is a strong leader, a strong monarch, to bring her people together once more. A strong, impartial monarch would send a message of national unity to those abroad and would ease tensions at home. What Danubia needs, now more than ever, is a strong Head of State, someone who is a just and respected leader. The obvious choice is, of course, His Imperial and Royal Majesty Franz Ferdinand von Habsburg-Lorraine. Now is the time for Danubia to unite as one! Now is the time for strong leadership! Now is the time for stability! Now is the time for Franz Ferdinand to take his rightful place as Head of State in a constitutional monarchy.

You are wrong. you are objectively wrong both in the moral sense and in the factual sense, and you are a liar. It is a lie to say that republican groups are inciting unrest anywhere, unrest is being incited against them, presumably by monarchists, and the republican groups in question are objectively not militant, so it is a lie to say, as you do, that they are. It is a lie to say that a monarch would bring the people together. How could anyone possibly be delusional enough to say such a thing? This country was founded on opposing monarchy and has demonstrated its commitment to that same noble ideal time and time again, how can you possibly think that reversing the very ideal that the country was founded on could bring anyone together? How will a monarch bring republicans together with monarchists? How can you expect Danubia to ever unite behind a monarch? How could you be delusional enough to say such a thing? You are, of course, a detestable liar. It is a lie to say that a monarch will bring unity or stability, what you call "strong leadership" is, of course, tyranny and autocracy, the very antitheses of the Danubian ideal, and, of course, it is a lie to say that Mr. Hapsburg has any right to anything. Please, Mr. Urckarte, stop lying. It seems fairly apparant that you do not believe in democracy, but still, the people you were elected to represent deserve better than your foul lies.

 

[Revan529]

That is profoundly wrong on every level, and it is both a sign of sheer unbridled idiocy on your part, and on the part of the monarchist-treason movement as a whole, as well as massive disrespect for the lives of the republican martyrs of Padua.

Nonetheless, I know that these heinous monarchist crimes, however terrible they may be, will never deter my fellow republicans in their efforts to preserve the liberty and equality so dear to Danubians and save the country from monarchist tyranny. Indeed, we will only be encouraged, as these crimes are a clear sign that the monarchists have no valid arguments to make peacefully and as a result can only resort to violence and murder. Monarchism is utterly illegitimate and is incompatible with Danubia on both a practical and ideological level, and soon all the people who have been brainwashed by monarchist lies and propaganda will awake from their nightmare and return to the true light of republicanism. Through the will of the people, Danubia shall be saved from tyranny and it will be saved from monarchy.

Yes, a band of 'drunken radicals singing Internationale,' and I assume they sung poorly if the bargoers reacted so, and a man in a gutter are "martyrs of republicanism." If the republican movement has gone from the venerable Metternich to slovenly drunkards, then I cannot help to weep for your cause, despite my own opposition for it... perhaps what is even more tragic is that the eloquence and intellectual power possessed by that revolutionary generation is entirely lost on you and your lot, which has taken to drunken songs, rhetorical pamphlets, and almost-clever slogans to prop up your broken and corrupt system, and react with vitriol and hate against even the most asinine of comments made against you, as a mere joke has provoked.

However, your childish wailing does raise something of great interest; you refer to the monarchists as "brainwashers" and "tyrants," despite their universal support for the democratic process and their endorsement of a liberal constitutional monarchy; may I ask you where this tyranny is? Where is this, as you call it, brainwashing? Why must you demean and devalue the ideals and beliefs of a sizeable number of Danubians?

Furthermore, I am interested in you championing of the "will of the people." As I previously stated, you denounce and disregard certain views held by an increasingly large plurality of people as illegitimate and tyrannical, and ignore the fact that a large number of other citizens have grown disinterested or indifferent towards; even more interesting is the fact that you opposed an official, nation-wide referendum to actually determine what the will of the people "was," and instead you've opted to take the foolish position that you already know what it is. Sir, you do not speak for the people, nor do I; we know not what the people desire their government to be -because- you refused a simple referendum; your speaking of the will of people as if it absolves you of any debate and discussion, especially when you arguably care not a wit for the People's opinions, merely paint you to be an arrogant, uninvolved, and thoroughly ignorant man, devoted solely to the expansion of your power, your wealth, and your support amongst your rabid band of antimonarchists, and entirely incapable of even the slightest shred of moderation. You refer to us as tyrants... but you are the tyrant, sir; you and every man in the Congress who chose not support a referendum on this government out of fear, not for the safety of this nation, but for the safety of your positions, and you are a shame.

~ IMPERIAL DEPUTY

 

[LatinKaiser]

You are wrong. you are objectively wrong both in the moral sense and in the factual sense, and you are a liar. It is a lie to say that republican groups are inciting unrest anywhere, unrest is being incited against them, presumably by monarchists, and the republican groups in question are objectively not militant, so it is a lie to say, as you do, that they are. It is a lie to say that a monarch would bring the people together. How could anyone possibly be delusional enough to say such a thing? This country was founded on opposing monarchy and has demonstrated its commitment to that same noble ideal time and time again, how can you possibly think that reversing the very ideal that the country was founded on could bring anyone together? How will a monarch bring republicans together with monarchists? How can you expect Danubia to ever unite behind a monarch? How could you be delusional enough to say such a thing? You are, of course, a detestable liar. It is a lie to say that a monarch will bring unity or stability, what you call "strong leadership" is, of course, tyranny and autocracy, the very antitheses of the Danubian ideal, and, of course, it is a lie to say that Mr. Hapsburg has any right to anything. Please, Mr. Urckarte, stop lying. It seems fairly apparant that you do not believe in democracy, but still, the people you were elected to represent deserve better than your foul lies.

Herr Mendel, perhaps you should look at a dictionary, but a constitutional monarchy is anything but autocracy. I oppose autocratic tyranny as much as the next Danubian. I merely seek a balance between monarchy and democracy. A Head of State has no legislative power, so how His Imperial and Royal Majesty could be a tyrant I do not know. Please, do enlighten me as to how this is possible.

~ Franz Urckarte, Deputy from Austria

 

[Jako473]

Some points of information:



((Especially since it bars you from personally being a member of Congress...))



((Um, as far as I can tell, the Constitution does not explicitly give anyone the right to address Congress, so no to the former, and no to the latter too, since I can see at least one article which may give Congress powers to remove you from office.))

((I knew I wasn't a member of congress, however, perhaps I went a little too much into the presumption rather then reading relentlessly on the subject. However, removing a man from an State office simply for submitting an bill that is in no way treasonous does seem rather absurd They must have reason, I assume?))

 

[theAhawk]

((I knew I wasn't a member of congress, however, perhaps I went a little too much into the presumption rather then reading relentlessly on the subject. However, removing a man from an State office simply for submitting an bill that is in no way treasonous does seem rather absurd They must have reason, I assume?))

((Not explicitly defined.))

 

[Dadarian]

A smaller Italian Deputy leans back

"Let's take Signore Mendel's words apart eh? See what lies beneath the vitriol and rhetoric.

You are wrong. you are objectively wrong both in the moral sense and in the factual sense, and you are a liar.

We'll see to that. Next!

It is a lie to say that republican groups are inciting unrest anywhere

Depends on view, they are not directly responsible for any unrest as yet. However their existence results in unrest which, in turn, is a result of the existence of the monarchist movement. So one could say they are, in fact, fermenting unrest in Venice as a result.

unrest is being incited against them, presumably by monarchists.

The end result is still unrest. Also assumption you cannot prove.

and the republican groups in question are objectively not militant

They have not done anything yet expect organise and proslytise, this is true.

so it is a lie to say, as you do, that they are.

And yet their existence does result in unrest, so the point is not completely wrong.

It is a lie to say that a monarch would bring the people together.

It seems to bring other people together. Minded that there is usually some form of parliament behind it, but the Prussian Kaiser, the Russian Czar, the Italian King (at one point) the former French Emperor, the British Queen, even back to the Roman Emperor all bring or brought their people together under force of will. Whether this is good or bad is moot in many cases, but as such this assertion is wrong.

How could anyone possibly be delusional enough to say such a thing?

A rather rude insult of another man's beliefs, but natural to the speaking pattern of Signore Mendal. Next!

This country was founded on opposing monarchy and has demonstrated its commitment to that same noble ideal time and time again,

It was founded to oppose tyranny. Close and usually tied, but not necessarily the same thing. Some modern scholars have begun to question the need to remove Ferdinand I von Habsburg. There is a small cadre of intellectuals that believe that if the Austrian Emperor gave into earlier demands, epitomised by the Revolutionary poem by Sándor Petőfi called Nemzeti dal. The Hungarians were raging against their slavery against the tyrant emperor. If the Austrian government had conceded and formed a parliament of Germans and Hungarians, it can be said that we'd be living under an emperor already.

That said, while close, you are not exactly correct Signore Mendal.

how can you possibly think that reversing the very ideal that the country was founded on could bring anyone together?

Natural assumption based on the previous assertion.

How will a monarch bring republicans together with monarchists?

I have no clue, you would have to ask a monarchist.

How can you expect Danubia to ever unite behind a monarch?

I imagine through romantic nostalgia, propaganda much like which you are producing in mass amounts and a strong army.

How could you be delusional enough to say such a thing?

Again an insult.

You are, of course, a detestable liar.

See above.

It is a lie to say that a monarch will bring unity or stability,

Given the current support in the politically active and the history of monarchs uniting their country, I would say this is a wild accusation with no bearing on reality.

what you call "strong leadership" is, of course, tyranny and autocracy,

So all strong presidents are tyrants and autocrats? Is Codrinaru, the liberator of the Slovaks and the Serfs, a tyrant? Is Soukup-Valenta, bastion against the Russians, a tyrant? Is Liberalen, the man who established our dominance in Europe, a tyrant and an autocrat?

Your hyperbole here is quite astounding.

the very antitheses of the Danubian ideal

Theoretically, the monarchy could crush our Danubian spirit of Freedom. I cannot deny that.

, and, of course, it is a lie to say that Mr. Hapsburg has any right to anything.

He has the rights applicable to all men. Here you sound as if you wish to deprive a man his rights due to his birth. You are a Jew correct? You may understand the irony of this.

Please, Mr. Urckarte, stop lying.

Assumption. Next!

It seems fairly apparant that you do not believe in democracy,

I do not see how this is a natural result of the previous accusations. No matter, as it is an assumption.

but still, the people you were elected to represent deserve better than your foul lies.

Assumption and in some states legally slander."

 

[Scrapknight]

In each of these cases, all violence has stemmed from people who have been peacefully protesting being assaulted by rowdy and violent monarchists. Nobody should be talking of banning anything; the monarchist movement, wrongheaded and un-Danubian as it is, has been allowed to practice in peace. The least it can do is tell its stooges on the street to grant the same courtesy to republicans.

My fellow Councillors, this country was united against Lilic because we feared he would make himself an Emperor. Why should we pay any heed to men with who not only have the same intentions but are completely upfront about it?

- Valentyn Sikorsky

 

[Revan529]

In each of these cases, all violence has stemmed from people who have been peacefully protesting being assaulted by rowdy and violent monarchists. Nobody should be talking of banning anything; the monarchist movement, wrongheaded and un-Danubian as it is, has been allowed to practice in peace. The least it can do is tell its stooges on the street to grant the same courtesy to republicans.

My fellow Councillors, this country was united against Lilic because we feared he would make himself an Emperor. Why should we pay any heed to men with who not only have the same intentions but are completely upfront about it?

- Valentyn Sikorsky

I don't recall "monarchist" being mentioned in any article regarding the Paduan affair; as such, until that the guilty parties are made known for certain, I would request you refrain assuming that they are either monarchists are associated with the Imperial Party.

And... unlike Lilic, who was a tyrant and a corrupt man, who abused his power at every opportunity, and lied about his intentions, His Imperial and Royal Majesty has been completely honest and forthright, and has not taken a violent, corrupt, or reprehensible action.

~ Imperial Deputy

 

[Damian0358]

And... unlike Lilic, who was a tyrant and a corrupt man, who abused his power at every opportunity, and lied about his intentions, His Imperial and Royal Majesty has been completely honest and forthright, and has not taken a violent, corrupt, or reprehensible action.

~ Imperial Deputy

How are we sure it will stay that way after gospodin Ferdinand takes the crown?

How are we sure that gospodin Ferdinand is not tyrannical aswell and will not attempt to increase his own power after he takes the crown?

- Jan Jaromír, Minister of Commerce

 

[Revan529]

Yep, newspaper time

​

 

[Keperry]

Yes, a band of 'drunken radicals singing Internationale,' and I assume they sung poorly if the bargoers reacted so, and a man in a gutter are "martyrs of republicanism." If the republican movement has gone from the venerable Metternich to slovenly drunkards, then I cannot help to weep for your cause, despite my own opposition for it... perhaps what is even more tragic is that the eloquence and intellectual power possessed by that revolutionary generation is entirely lost on you and your lot, which has taken to drunken songs, rhetorical pamphlets, and almost-clever slogans to prop up your broken and corrupt system, and react with vitriol and hate against even the most asinine of comments made against you, as a mere joke has provoked.

However, your childish wailing does raise something of great interest; you refer to the monarchists as "brainwashers" and "tyrants," despite their universal support for the democratic process and their endorsement of a liberal constitutional monarchy; may I ask you where this tyranny is? Where is this, as you call it, brainwashing? Why must you demean and devalue the ideals and beliefs of a sizeable number of Danubians?

Furthermore, I am interested in you championing of the "will of the people." As I previously stated, you denounce and disregard certain views held by an increasingly large plurality of people as illegitimate and tyrannical, and ignore the fact that a large number of other citizens have grown disinterested or indifferent towards; even more interesting is the fact that you opposed an official, nation-wide referendum to actually determine what the will of the people "was," and instead you've opted to take the foolish position that you already know what it is. Sir, you do not speak for the people, nor do I; we know not what the people desire their government to be -because- you refused a simple referendum; your speaking of the will of people as if it absolves you of any debate and discussion, especially when you arguably care not a wit for the People's opinions, merely paint you to be an arrogant, uninvolved, and thoroughly ignorant man, devoted solely to the expansion of your power, your wealth, and your support amongst your rabid band of antimonarchists, and entirely incapable of even the slightest shred of moderation. You refer to us as tyrants... but you are the tyrant, sir; you and every man in the Congress who chose not support a referendum on this government out of fear, not for the safety of this nation, but for the safety of your positions, and you are a shame.

I am glad we can both agree that you are asinine, at least.

Tyranny is having a leader who was not elected or who rules by right of birth or who, in any other way, wields any power from any source other than the will of the people and the will of the people alone. Brainwashing is your ilk's incessant attempts to convince the people otherwise or to claim in any way that monarchy can ever be democratic or that it is compatible with Danubian ideals or that it will in any way lead to stability or unity or that it will not polarize and destabilize and ruin the country as it has so very many times in the past. It is brainwashing to trick the people into thinking that a monarchy will be anything but terrible and ruinous for them and for the country. A constitutional monarchy can never be liberal and is always a sham that inevitably in a small clique of upper class aristocrats seizing power and lording over the country to the detriment of everyone else. Really, there is no such thing as a constitutional monarchy. Monarchy is monarchy, and monarchy is always illegitimate and tyrannical.

Wealth and power? I was unaware that I was so wealthy or that anything I was doing was in any way increasing my wealth or power, it is good to know that I am apparently rich and mighty. No, sir, if I were wealthy and powerful I would not be spending my time in this rat's nest. Indeed, moderating myself would serve me much better in the pursuit of political power, but I cannot do so as long as I am loyal to Danubia and to democracy. I actually think that it is quite moderate to attempt to save democracy and the republic, the ideals upon which the country was founded and that still form the heart of the national character, but that is beside the point.

Opening the door to the destruction of democracy can never be democratic, and therefore a referendum on monarchy can never be democratic. Monarchy is not a legitimate issue, only a controversy invented by anti-democratic demagogues and traitors founded in violent rebellion and utterly contrary to everything that is good and righteous, and therefore a referendum on it would also be utterly illegitimate. This monarchy of yours does not deserve a referendum. Furthermore, if your faith in referendums is so absolute, then you must also be demanding that we abolish all state monarchies as a referendum did indeed demand we do, or else you are a total hypocrite and you have forfeited your right to speak of referendums.

Herr Mendel, perhaps you should look at a dictionary, but a constitutional monarchy is anything but autocracy. I oppose autocratic tyranny as much as the next Danubian. I merely seek a balance between monarchy and democracy. A Head of State has no legislative power, so how His Imperial and Royal Majesty could be a tyrant I do not know. Please, do enlighten me as to how this is possible.

How can you claim that you support a non-tyrannous constitutional monarch with no power when just minutes ago you were clamoring for a "strong" monarch with strong powers? You are a liar and a hypocrite. Furthermore, you are admitting right now that democracy and monarchy are opposites, since otherwise it would be impossible to "balance between monarchy and democracy". Democracy, sir, cannot be "balanced" or compromised or sacrificed or conceded or surrendered. Democracy is the basic right of all people everywhere and it is here to stay forever, and no monarchy can infringe upon that, and as you have more or less admitted the referendum has nothing to do with democracy and would not be democratic and in fact would be against democracy since monarchy is against democracy. Furthermore, any head of state who is not elected is a tyrant, always.

I don't recall "monarchist" being mentioned in any article regarding the Paduan affair; as such, until that the guilty parties are made known for certain, I would request you refrain assuming that they are either monarchists are associated with the Imperial Party.

And... unlike Lilic, who was a tyrant and a corrupt man, who abused his power at every opportunity, and lied about his intentions, His Imperial and Royal Majesty has been completely honest and forthright, and has not taken a violent, corrupt, or reprehensible action.

After the armed monarchist rebellion that sought to use violence and treason to overthrow the republic and democracy itself, it is really not a stretch to ascribe petty crimes (reprehensible though they may be) to monarchists, most of whom are probably the same traitors who fought in the rebellion. And it is inherently corrupt and awesomely reprehensible for any man to seek to make himself emperor and lord over his fellow men and citizens. God made all men equal and it is corrupt and reprehensible for Mr. Hapsburg to seek to make himself greater than his fellow men, as he is doing. No decent man would seek to crown himself, since no decent man would seek so much power for himself. Unless he renounces any pretension to have the right to rule over any of us, it is impossible to see Mr. Hapsburg as anything other than a power-hungry demagogue.

 

[Otto of england]

I am glad we can both agree that you are asinine, at least.

Tyranny is having a leader who was not elected or who rules by right of birth or who, in any other way, wields any power from any source other than the will of the people and the will of the people alone. Brainwashing is your ilk's incessant attempts to convince the people otherwise or to claim in any way that monarchy can ever be democratic or that it is compatible with Danubian ideals or that it will in any way lead to stability or unity or that it will not polarize and destabilize and ruin the country as it has so very many times in the past. It is brainwashing to trick the people into thinking that a monarchy will be anything but terrible and ruinous for them and for the country. A constitutional monarchy can never be liberal and is always a sham that inevitably in a small clique of upper class aristocrats seizing power and lording over the country to the detriment of everyone else. Really, there is no such thing as a constitutional monarchy. Monarchy is monarchy, and monarchy is always illegitimate and tyrannical.

Opening the door to the destruction of democracy can never be democratic, and therefore a referendum on monarchy can never be democratic. Monarchy is not a legitimate issue, only a controversy invented by anti-democratic demagogues and traitors founded in violent rebellion and utterly contrary to everything that is good and righteous, and therefore a referendum on it would also be utterly illegitimate. This monarchy of yours does not deserve a referendum. Furthermore, if your faith in referendums is so absolute, then you must also be demanding that we abolish all state monarchies as a referendum did indeed demand we do, or else you are a total hypocrite and you have forfeited your right to speak of referendums.

So ignoring your vast amount of insults in your statements, which make me believe you are unsure of your own causes legitimacy which is resulting in you insulting people who try to be civil but, no matter I'm getting off track.

To your assertion that a Constitutional Monarchy cannot ever be liberal I say this the definition of liberal is:

"Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values."

So with this in mind a Constitutional Monarchy with an elected parliament, is not limited in its liberality by virtue of having a Monarch as head. The limiting factor here is how liberal the population is, and the representatives they elect. Thus if in the free and fair elections a non liberal house is elected it will not be liberal but, by the same token if a liberal one is elected it will be liberal. This is the exact same way our current system works, as if the people wanted to they could elect an extremely illiberal party that was open about removing elections if they felt like it. This is true in all free and fair electoral systems, every possible result, is possible and if every possible result is not possible then your are no longer a democracy.

The fault with the original Monarchy referendum is that it was inherently tyrannical and illiberal in nature, as it sought to abolish the preferred government of a minority of people who were effected by it by asking the majority of people who weren't effected. For while technically it was a legitimate and democratic result, the intention and design of it was also inherently tyrannical as it sought to oppress the people living with in Silesia who were happy with their Monarchical government. The championing of this referendum is really, just the championing of tyranny and illiberal thoughts and acts.

Also you bringing it up is pointless as its unconstitutional to removing the Monarchy except by the will of the Silesian, or Albanian people and if the supreme court decided it was not unconstitutional I guarantee you that the Silesian Monarchy would reform days afterward and thus would be a waste of time.

- Krysztof Czarnowski, just your friendly neighborhood Polish Monarchist

 

[LatinKaiser]

How can you claim that you support a non-tyrannous constitutional monarch with no power when just minutes ago you were clamoring for a "strong" monarch with strong powers? You are a liar and a hypocrite. Furthermore, you are admitting right now that democracy and monarchy are opposites, since otherwise it would be impossible to "balance between monarchy and democracy". Democracy, sir, cannot be "balanced" or compromised or sacrificed or conceded or surrendered. Democracy is the basic right of all people everywhere and it is here to stay forever, and no monarchy can infringe upon that, and as you have more or less admitted the referendum has nothing to do with democracy and would not be democratic and in fact would be against democracy since monarchy is against democracy. Furthermore, any head of state who is not elected is a tyrant, always.

You, sir, are being most economical with the truth. Inferring as you do that a strong leader has strong powers is quite false. When I said that Danubia needs a strong monarch, I meant that the monarch should be strong-willed and steadfast in their pursuit of justice and stability. Your less than courageous accusations that I am a liar and a hypocrite would be amusing, if not for the fact that you are an elected representative of the Danubian people. Your fears about the power of the government beg the question, "Why are you a part of it?" If you are so concerned about the supposedly inherent corruption and tyranny within government, perhaps you should resign from your seat? Once again, I urge you to use a dictionary before you speak, for you seem to confuse the Head of State, a mostly symbolic position, with the Head of Government, a position that has actual power. Finally, your assertion that any head of state (not government) is always a tyrant, is quite frankly, to unintelligent to warrant a response.

~ Franz Urckarte

 

[Revan529]

I am glad we can both agree that you are asinine, at least.

Tyranny is having a leader who was not elected or who rules by right of birth or who, in any other way, wields any power from any source other than the will of the people and the will of the people alone.

Lilic was elected (more or less), and he was a tyrant, and there are those would declare the silvertongued Kraus to have tyrannical inclinations, or Spiros, or even Banik; simply because a head of state is not elected does not inherently mean that the man is a tyrant; is the Queen Victoria a tyrant? Was the Turkish lawgiver a tyrant? A tyrant is, at its heart, an oppressive ruler, not an unelected head of state.

Brainwashing is your ilk's incessant attempts to convince the people otherwise or to claim in any way that monarchy can ever be democratic or that it is compatible with Danubian ideals or that it will in any way lead to stability or unity or that it will not polarize and destabilize and ruin the country as it has so very many times in the past. It is brainwashing to trick the people into thinking that a monarchy will be anything but terrible and ruinous for them and for the country. A constitutional monarchy can never be liberal and is always a sham that inevitably in a small clique of upper class aristocrats seizing power and lording over the country to the detriment of everyone else. Really, there is no such thing as a constitutional monarchy. Monarchy is monarchy, and monarchy is always illegitimate and tyrannical.

I honestly see not a single point here worth challenging, as it is so devoid of any semblance of reason, so lacking of a shred of intellectual effort, that I cannot even begin to establish some sort of counter to it; it is, sir, complete anti-reason. That would even argue that the views of millions of citizens of this nation are "brainwashed" and anti-democratic truly shows how depraved and arrogant you truly are. I would never argue that the leftists and socialists of this nation are brainwashed; erroneous, yes, but not a bunch of blathering fools who merely follow nitwits such as you into the abyss that is your unrealistic utopia.
Perhaps the best way to contend with you is to counter your obvious insanity with the same; there is no such thing as democracy, as the people are permitted to vote for every piece of legislation directly, and therefore, they are oppressed by an elite legislative class that manipulates the electoral process to maintain their control despite their anti-popular policies.

Wealth and power? I was unaware that I was so wealthy or that anything I was doing was in any way increasing my wealth or power, it is good to know that I am apparently rich and mighty. No, sir, if I were wealthy and powerful I would not be spending my time in this rat's nest. Indeed, moderating myself would serve me much better in the pursuit of political power, but I cannot do so as long as I am loyal to Danubia and to democracy. I actually think that it is quite moderate to attempt to save democracy and the republic, the ideals upon which the country was founded and that still form the heart of the national character, but that is beside the point.

Yes... denying people the right to have a referendum to determine their future is truly democratic. I applaud you for your complete and utter lack of sanity.

Opening the door to the destruction of democracy can never be democratic, and therefore a referendum on monarchy can never be democratic. Monarchy is not a legitimate issue, only a controversy invented by anti-democratic demagogues and traitors founded in violent rebellion and utterly contrary to everything that is good and righteous, and therefore a referendum on it would also be utterly illegitimate. This monarchy of yours does not deserve a referendum. Furthermore, if your faith in referendums is so absolute, then you must also be demanding that we abolish all state monarchies as a referendum did indeed demand we do, or else you are a total hypocrite and you have forfeited your right to speak of referendums.

Must we continue this game? You declare monarchy inherently anti-democratic, yet there is ample evidence in the form of the United Kingdom that that is simply not the case. The British nation has, unlike the Federation, experienced a far more stable few decades, whilst this nation has been habitually struggled to find its footing, jumping from one-party rule in the 1860s and 70s, to the Tyrannical Lilic, to Banik, who fortunately has some sense about him.

And yet again you call the views of millions illegitimate, spawned by "demagogues," which coming from you is utterly confounding. If there is a demagogue amongst us all, it would be you, Signore Mendel.

As for the State monarchies, I hold no opinion regarding that referendum, though if you support the passage of the Imperial referendum, I will support any proposal to have that done at once to determine it once and for all.

After the armed monarchist rebellion that sought to use violence and treason to overthrow the republic and democracy itself, it is really not a stretch to ascribe petty crimes (reprehensible though they may be) to monarchists, most of whom are probably the same traitors who fought in the rebellion. And it is inherently corrupt and awesomely reprehensible for any man to seek to make himself emperor and lord over his fellow men and citizens. God made all men equal and it is corrupt and reprehensible for Mr. Hapsburg to seek to make himself greater than his fellow men, as he is doing. No decent man would seek to crown himself, since no decent man would seek so much power for himself. Unless he renounces any pretension to have the right to rule over any of us, it is impossible to see Mr. Hapsburg as anything other than a power-hungry demagogue.

You are merely making assumptions; this could have been a random act, the act of nationalists, or imperialists; we do not yet know, and considering the Imperial intelligentsia and the Emperor himself have condemned the murder, it holds no wright.

As well, no decent man would deny the right of the people to have a say in how they're governed, as you seem content to do.

~ IMPERIAL PARTISAN

 

[Andre Massena]

The recent violence in Italy, which is the result of militant republican groups in the area inciting unrest, is very concerning. These recent incidents in Padua further illustrate the failure of the government to unite the Danubian people. Now, while many may say that the monarchist debate is what is dividing the Federation, the debate is not what has caused needless acts of violence in Italy. What Danubia needs is a strong leader, a strong monarch, to bring her people together once more. A strong, impartial monarch would send a message of national unity to those abroad and would ease tensions at home. What Danubia needs, now more than ever, is a strong Head of State, someone who is a just and respected leader. The obvious choice is, of course, His Imperial and Royal Majesty Franz Ferdinand von Habsburg-Lorraine. Now is the time for Danubia to unite as one! Now is the time for strong leadership! Now is the time for stability! Now is the time for Franz Ferdinand to take his rightful place as Head of State in a constitutional monarchy.

~ Franz Urckarte, Deputy from Austria

What it needs, Herr Urkarte, is not just a monarchy. It needs a strong, German president with unlimited power to being stability to this great country.

-Eric von Rumpus