A Federation of "Equals" - A Danubian Federation Interative AAR

[Terraferma]

((Since we're talking about what to do with all of Liberalen's various projects and shadowy cults, what about the Progressive Society?))

(That would be my area generally speaking)

 

[unmerged(522090)]

Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: YES
Statement of Fundamental Principles: YES
Acceptance of a Unitary System: NO
Principles of this Federation Clause: ABSTAIN
Presidential Republic Proposal: YES
Parliamentary Republic Proposal: YES
Act of Name: ABSTAIN
Establishment of Federal Supremacy: YES
Assurance of States' Rights: NO
The Galician Reorganisation Act: ABSTAIN

 

[Revan529]

Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Yea
Statement of Fundamental Principles: Yea
Acceptance of a Unitary System: Nay
Principles of this Federation Clause: Nay
Presidential Republic Proposal: Yea
Parliamentary Republic Proposal: Yea
Act of Name: Nay
Establishment of Federal Supremacy: Yea
Assurance of States' Rights: Yea

[Cisalpina]


~ Francesco de Palma, He's Something in this Government

 

[unmerged(718634)]

Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Aye

Statement of Fundamental Principles: Aye
Acceptance of a Unitary System: Nay
Principles of this Federation Clause: Abstain

Presidential Republic Proposal: Aye
Parliamentary Republic Proposal: Aye

Act of Name: NAY

Establishment of Federal Supremacy: Aye
Assurance of States' Rights: Nay

Bohemian Delegate, Ludimil Skoda

 

[jeeshadow]

With the growing threat in Italy, increase of tensions across the Federation, and lack of anything being done about this, I hereby call upon the Supreme Court to take action in regards to these issues.

Aetios Spiros
President of the Danubian Federation

 

[Scrapknight]

Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Yes

Statement of Fundamental Principles: Yes

Acceptance of a Unitary System: Abstain

Principles of this Federation Clause: Aye

Presidential Republic Proposal: Aye

Parliamentary Republic Proposal: Nay

Act of Name: Aye

Establishment of Federal Supremacy: Aye

Assurance of State's Rights: NAY

- Alexandros Petrakis, Councillor for Crete

 

[Jako473]

With the growing threat in Italy, increase of tensions across the Federation, and lack of anything being done about this, I hereby call upon the Supreme Court to take action in regards to these issues.

Aetios Spiros
President of the Danubian Federation

"President" Spiros, we have not defined what the Supreme Court is in the convention yet, I hardly think it fair to express their current power before they might be completely changed. Can you even order the Supreme Court to listen to cases? Aren't you supposed to be taking a step-back while we solve issues in the convention?

-President-Minister of Slovenia, Charles Jakopin

 

[DensleyBlair]

"President" Spiros, we have not defined what the Supreme Court is in the convention yet, I hardly think it fair to express their current power before they might be completely changed. Can you even order the Supreme Court to listen to cases? Aren't you supposed to be taking a step-back while we solve issues in the convention?

-President-Minister of Slovenia, Charles Jakopin

Sir, regardless, the Supreme Court remains the only aspect of our government not to have been dissolved when the convention were summoned. Their powers have not as yet been altered, and therefore – whether "fair" or not – the President is fully within his rights to call upon them to do their job.

~Dr. Jenő Várpaloti

((I quote the update:

"[...]the only body which retained the power to act, as a quirk of the time requirement upon the convention, was the notoriously slow Supreme Court"[...]))

 

[Keperry]

In that case, I would like to hear how you propose that the various pressing issues facing our Federation be dealt with, Mr. Jakopin.

 

[theAhawk]

With the growing threat in Italy, increase of tensions across the Federation, and lack of anything being done about this, I hereby call upon the Supreme Court to take action in regards to these issues.

Aetios Spiros
President of the Danubian Federation

It is the view of the Supreme Court that the neutrality of the constitutional of the state in the constitutional convention should not be violated unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, though we would be willing to hear submissions for the extension of the present constitution for specific tasks, it must be cover limited and clearly stated objectives which can be achieved through the transfer of specific powers and which can be demonstrated to have a minimal impact of the drafting process of the new constiution. The Supreme Court, therefore, welcomes submissions from the President, his Ministers and any other relevant and interested parties along these lines.

~ The Lord Chief Justice

((Also, voting is now closed - I shall count the votes shortly.))

 

[theAhawk]

((The results:

Article for the Continuity of Law and Order - Adopted; 23-0 for
Statement of Fundamental Principles - Adopted; 16-7 for
Acceptance of a Unitary System - Rejected; 18-3 against
Principles of this Federation Clause - Rejected; 11-9 against
Presidential Republic Proposal - Adopted; 15-6 for
Parliamentary Republic Proposal - Adopted; 14-7 for
Act of Name - Rejected; 11-5 against
Establishment of Federal Supremacy - Adopted; 14-8 for
Assurance of State's Rights - Rejected; 11-10 against

The Galician Reorganisation Act - Passed; 2-0 for

---

Articles adopted into the constituion in order of size of majority*:
Article for the Continuity of Law and Order (23-0)
Statement of Fundamental Principles (16-7)
Presidential Republic Proposal (15-6)
Parliamentary Republic Proposal (14-7)
Establishment of Federal Supremacy (14-8)

*Articles passed with a larger majority take preference when conflict arises between two articles; it later articles gain a higher majority, they can take preference, so bear in mind the size of the majority already gained if you are proposing an article that will conflict with one already adopted.

---

It is now week 2 (The Head of State and Head of Government, including the role, privileges, responsibilities, and powers of these individuals, and how they are chosen). Please restrict new proposals and discussion to within this topic.

 

[Jako473]

This is a disgrace! The state's are what make of this dastardly federation, what are we to do when you throw them away? I swear, if it weren't for the seventh week of the convention, Slovenia would seriously be considering its role and function in a federal-dominated state! We are an sovereign, and could be fully-independent if we so chose. If this convention will not recongnize that of the states in the future, then I see no reason why we would continue to serve in an centralized hell, and that's all I am going to say on the matter.

On more recent news, before I propose an outright bill, I would prefer if the Head-of-State and the Head-of-Government being the same person, and being democratically elected by all people of the federation. However I think some of the powers delegated to him should be delegated rightfully to other persons...

 

[99KingHigh]

Basic Outline for the Presidential and Parliamentary Structure​

as proposed to the Constitutional Convention for address, amendment and response.
​

Powers and Regulations of the President:
Article I. Person of the Presidency
I. The Executive Branch is thus lead by the President of the Danubian Federation.
II. The President of the Danubian Federation must be of at least 25 years of age.
III. The President of the Danubian Federation must have be a resident of the Danubian Federation.
IV. The President of the Danubian Federation may originate from any constituent state of the Federation.
V. The President of the Danubian Federation is to be elected by every Danubian citizen in a Federation-wide election for a term of four years. The candidate that receives more than 50% of the total votes is elected as President of the Federation, if no candidate receives the required number of votes then there will be a runoff voting between the two candidates that received the most votes.
VII. The President of the Danubian Federation shall be elected for a term of four years by the current electoral system of the Federation.

Article II. Role of the Presidency
I. The President of the Danubian Federation is the Head of State of the Danubian Federation.
II. The President of the Danubian Federation is the Commander in Chief of the Federal Army and Navy. He shall preside over the higher national defense councils and committees.
III. The President of the Danubian Federation serves as the Head of the Executive Branch.
IV. The President of the Danubian Federation shall see that the Constitution is observed. He shall ensure, by his arbitration, the proper functioning of the public authorities and the continuity of the State. He shall be the guarantor of national independence, territorial integrity and observance of treaties.
Article III. Powers of the Presidency in Relation to the Legislature and Executive.
I. The President of the Danubian Federation shall appoint the Prime Minister. He shall terminate the appointment of the Prime Minister when the Prime Minister provides the resignation of the Government. On the proposal of the Prime Minister, he shall appoint the other members of the Government and terminate their appointments.
II. The President of the Danubian Federation shall preside over the Council of Ministers.
III. The President of the Danubian Federation shall sign Acts of Parliament within fifteen days following the adoption of an Act and its transmission to the Executive. He may, before the concision of this time limit, ask Parliament to reconsider the Act or sections of the Act. Reconsideration shall not be refused.
IV. The President of the Danubian Federation can submit laws to the people in a referendum with advice and consent of the cabinet.
V. The President of the Danubian Federation shall communicate with the two assemblies of Parliament by means of messages, which he shall cause to be read and shall be restricted by his attendance at debates. He can also give an address in front of the Presidential Palace in Vienna.
VI. The President may only dissolve the Parliament if consensus is granted by the Prime Minister and the Council of Ministers. The President may not dissolve Parliament in the event of a national security crisis or the declaration of Martial Law.
Article IV. Special Powers of the President.
I. The President of the Danubian Federation may provide a pardon (not amnesty) to any criminal.
II. Where the institutions of the Federation, the independence of the Nation, the integrity of its territory or the fulfillment of its international commitments are under serious and immediate threat, and where the proper functioning of the constitutional public authorities is interrupted, the President of the Danubian Federation shall take the measures required by these circumstances, after formally consulting the Prime Minister, the Minister of War, and the Chief of the General Staff. This stanza is in correlation with the The War and Emergency Measures Act of 1863.
Article V -
I. Should the Presidency of the Federation fall vacant for any reason, or the Parliament and Council of Ministers find that the President of the Federation is incapacitated, the duties of the President of the Federation will motion to the Prime Minister. In the event of such a scenario, elections will be called immediately, to be held within the next twenty-one days.


Powers and Regulations of the President of the Council of Ministers - The Prime Minister of the Danube.
Article I - Nomination.
I. VI. The Prime Minister is appointed by the President of the Federation, he rules together with the President as regulated by the "Powers and Regulations of the President of the Council of Ministers". The Council of Ministers is therefore appointed by the Prime Minister with the approval of the President.
II. The Prime Minister of the Federation must be a congressional member - either the leader of a political party or a appointee on his behalf..
III. The Prime Minister does not have to be the effective leader of the Federations ruling party.
IV. As the Prime Minister may be forced into resignation by the power of Parliament, it is thus highly suggested that the President of the Danubian Federation appoint the ruling parties delegate.
Article II - Powers of the Prime Ministers
I. The Prime Minister shall direct the actions of the Government.
II. The Prime Minister shall ensure the implementation of legislation.
a. The Prime Minister and the President shall convene with the Council of Ministers to implement all legislation passed by Parliament.
b. The Prime Minister shall preside over the Council of Ministers in the absence of the President.
c. IV. All actions undertaken by Executive Ministers must be approved by the Prime Minister. The President has the right to veto the approvals by the Prime Minister.
III. The Prime Minister shall have power to make regulations and shall propose appointments to civil and military posts, directed towards the Council of Ministers.
IV. The Prime Minister has the executive authority to call forth a extraordinary session of Parliament.
V. The Prime Minister proposed the list of ministers for approval by the President of the Federation.
Article III - Role of the Prime Minister
I. The Prime Minister is the Head of Government for the Danubian Federation.

Removal from Executive Office and Legislative Dissolution
Article I - Executive Removal
I. The Congress of the Federation can remove any member of the Executive through a parliamentary vote.
II. The Prime Minister and his government can be removed by a simple majority with a vote of no confidence, the President then will be free to appoint a new Prime Minister and a new government.
III. The President can be removed by a two-thirds supermajority with a vote of no confidence, after the removal of the President the Congress is dissolved and new elections are called.
Article II - Legislative Dissolution
I. The Congress can be exceptionally dissolved before its natural term if both the President, the Prime Minister, his government and a simple majority of the Congress agree to do so.
II. The dissolution of the Congress also concludes the term of the President. A new election will be called to elect both the new Congress and a new President. The leaving President will provisionally rule the Federation until the election of his successor.

​

 

[Keperry]

There is very little merit in Mr. Revenjo's proposal. For one thing, it is clearly in contravention of the Presidential Republic Proposal, which establishes that the head of state and head of government shall be the same person. Regardless, it is simply an awful idea to attempt to combine the parliamentary and presidential systems into some abominable hybrid. There is no justification for doing so. Looking at the bill, I can see no reason whatsoever why the position of prime minister is necessary in the least. The prime minister is completely superfluous, having no powers whatsoever that could not also be held with the president with no ill effects. The inclusion of a prime minister in this proposal does not check or regulate the power of the president in any way (the only argument for a parliamentary system that I heard), it only makes the government more complicated in a completely unnecessary manner. Simply doing away with the prime minister would make the government much more efficient, less riven by conflict, and much more democratic, since the president is directly elected by the people and the prime minister is not. And there is another issue--why is the prime minister appointed by the president? Why bother suggesting who the president appoints rather than mandating it? Mandating it, of course, would also be a terrible idea. There is no way to make this proposal work other than eliminating the prime minister completely, and there is no reason why the prime minister should not be removed, or why such a proposal should be accepted if he is not.

 

[99KingHigh]

Basic Outline for the Presidential and Parliamentary Structure is thus proposed as a combined amendment to the Presidential Republic Proposal and the Parliamentary Republic Proposal, both adopted by the Majority.

 

[Keperry]

I note that Mr. Revenjo has found some prodecural loophole while failing utterly to address the many, many crippling flaws of his proposal that I have mentioned.

 

[Otto of england]

Unlike Herr Kysely I like Herr Revenjo's proposal, it seems to combined the best of both systems.

- Deputy Colonel Leopold von Tirpitz

 

[Jackbollda]

Treidich begins to make an address, frail as ever, defending the creation of a prime minister:
-
Field Marshal Revenjo, one of the honorable leaders of the Danubian general staff, has a worthy point with his proposal.
If we do not choose his proposal, we should at least see his reasoning.
Do not let this... self-denying hungarian manipulate your perspectives.

From my perspective, it seems rather naive to assume that focusing all the powers of the state and government in one corpus personae is a wise decision. With my understanding of the ideologies of our esteemed liberal compatriots, I would say that to ensure that liberty and representative freedoms never die in Danubia, it would be wiser to divide powers.
It all comes down to division of powers.
If one goes with a fully unified president in the stead of a divided leadership, one invites all the problems of monarchy (under a different name).

Consider the legislative bodies. They are the primary means by which the people have a direct link to their government. A prime minister would be beholden to the leading coalition of elects (and likely come from it), rather than Danubia simply having a distant president.
-
The only way to ensure freedoms is to prevent their derailment... including derailment by over-centralizing malcontents. A monolithic presidency would be asking for a bloated and abusive one.
Divide the powers.
Make the president the head of state, and the prime minister head of government.

Support the amendment, brothers, for accurate representation, and for Freedom!
For Danubia!

 

[Keperry]

For a moment, pure rage overcomes Kysely's features as he is called a Hungarian, but he manages to compose himself and continue speaking.

Mr. von Treidich, it seems, has been bamboozled. He is speaking out to agree with the intention of the proposal. It is not an intention with which I agree, but I can see why some might. However, he does not seem to have read the proposal at all. If he had, he would realize that the proposal does nothing, nothing at all, to divide powers or to weaken the presidency. How does it? It gives the prime minister no meaningful powers whatsoever that the president does not also have, it simply clutters up the government with an unnecessary office. I challenge Mr. von Treidich or any other erroneous supporters of the proposal to prove otherwise.

After this point, Mr. von Treidich simply falls into fallacies.

He completely misunderstands the "problems of monarchy" that he claims a presidential system would bring. The problem of monarchy is that the monarch is not democratically elected, and that he is set above his fellow citizens by law. A President would simply be the chief executive and not a sovereign. And, of course, the President would be democratically elected. Therefore, his argument that the President is "distant" or in any way a less legitimate representative of the people is utter drivel. And, even if it were not, since Mr. von Treidich has not read the proposal he ignores the fact that it would have the prime minister be appointed by the President, which would necessarily make him even more distant from the Danubian people than the President is.

Like so many advocates of the parliamentary system who warn that the presidential system must necessarily lead to autocratic abuse of power, Mr. von Treidich completely ignores the fact that we have already had the presidential system for all of our existence and it has lead to no such thing. He warns of what will happen if we hypothetically adopt a system that we have already had for many years without any of that happening. There is nothing wrong with the presidential system and therefore no reason to fix it, unlike the many other ills in the Federation that would be much better uses of our time to address. And, even if that concern was legitimate, this proposal, again, does absolutely nothing to address it since the prime minister is appointed directly by the President and has no meaningful powers that he could possibly use to prevent anyone from doing anything, much less the President from abusing his power.

Not a word that has come out of Mr. von Treidich's mouth is correct, likely because he is too busy coming up with racist falsehoods to spew to actually read the proposal that he blindly, senselessly defends. I urge all of you to vote against the proposal. It has no merit.

 

[jeeshadow]

As President of the Danubian Federation, I call upon the Supreme Court to grant the Presidency, in its role as commander in chief, and the Danubian Military the power, and authority to restore order to our ally Italy. The continued violence in Italy is a threat not just to the Federation, but all of Southern Europe. If you do not feel we should act, feel free to voice your opinions. I, and most likely the Supreme Court, shall take them into consideration.
-Aetios Sprios
President of the Federation