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Somberg

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Aye
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Act of Name: Aye
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Assurance of States' Rights: Nay

~ Edoardo Vertucci, Representative for Cisalpina
 

Otto of england

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Aye
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Establishment of Federal Supremacy: Nay
Assurance of State's Rights: Aye

- Deputy Colonel Leopold Von Tirpitz
 

Terraferma

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: YES
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Acceptance of a Unitary System: NO
Principles of this Federation Clause: ABSTAIN
Presidential Republic Proposal: YES
Parliamentary Republic Proposal: YES
Act of Name: ABSTAIN
Establishment of Federal Supremacy: YES
Assurance of States' Rights: NO

- Foreign Minister Gabriel Soukup-Valenta
 

Guilu

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order : Yes
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Presidential Republic Proposal : No
Parliamentary Republic Proposal : Yes
Act of Name : No
Establishment of Federal Supremacy : No
 
Last edited:

Plutonium95

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Aye
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Act of Name: Nay
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Assurance of State's Rights: Aye

Zenel I, King of the Albanians

((theAhawk I was wondering why the "Assurance of State's Rights" proposal wasn't included on your list, is it not up for vote?))
 

Thoctar

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Presidential Republic Proposal: YES
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Establishment of Federal Supremacy: YES
Assurance of States' Rights: NO
 
Last edited:

jeeshadow

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Yes
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-President Spiros
 

Xenophon13

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: YES
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Establishment of Federal Supremacy: YES
Assurance of States' Rights: NO
 

Marschalk

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On federal centralism and future of the Danubian Federation, by Graf Peter von der Pahlen

For a while I have been a supporter of the status quo in the Federation, however, constant attempts of the Hofburg authority to infringe the rights of the states, makes them subservient and colorless, have persuaded me to think this matter over. Think over the so-called federalist centralist issue. For a while it has been plaguing our Federation, causing strife and mutual hatred, had a number of loud-mouthed supporters – but what is really its nature and history?

First of all, all of us should understand one simple thing. This political ideology and the so-called ironclad federal supremacy that has been enforced during all these times has been inherited by us from the previous imperial regime. During the rule of Habsburgs people of completely different religions, history and culture were held together by brute force of bayonets, were humiliated and enslaved by the central government (in fact the centralist despotism, not the fact that Austria was a monarchy caused the revolution!) – and this tradition still exists, and is enforced vigorously. Even more, now more states are treated in such a way.

I understood it quite well a couple of days ago, when President Aerts asked me a provocative question, whether I would secede, if the Hofburg bureaucrats would abolish our monarchy. I never was a secessionist, always trying to talk reason into the people who saw Silesia as a subservient administrative unit, without its voice and rights. But suddenly I thought – what would really happen, if a majority of Silesian people would indeed want to become free? The answer is simple – the federal authorities, propagating the rights of men, would send an army to kill my people and burn their towns and villages, in order to enforce the will of Hofburg. So much talks about democracy and brotherhood…

Current rather centralized Federation, as a public entity, is often declared as the summum bonum, as the something our people should be ready to give everything for, including their rights, believes and cultural identity. However, what is its foundation, what is its so-called unity based on? Maybe, common bloodties, common history or common culture? No, we have Greek, Romanian, Italian, German states. Common religion? Orthodox, Catholics and Muslim states would certainly not agree with that, Common ideology? All of us have seen how different are the views of the inhabitants of different federal entities.

Hofburg demagogues would say that some kind of revolutionary spirit and love for freedom unites this Federation – as if you cannot be free without being part of this entity and bowing to the bureaucrats in the central government! Also, all of us have seen how our past governments tried to take rights and freedoms from some of our citizens, and how some states tried to dismantle the others. We saw civil wars during which thousands of our citizens killed each others, because of their differences. So, does this free-mindedness and mutual respect always unite us? We should not kid each other. Current centralized Federation is just an antiquated administrative behemoth, based on Habsburg traditions and the guns of the federal-paid soldiers.

As a member of the federal legislature, I travelled from one state to another. And you know what I saw? People in all of them valued their cultural identity. What happened in their home state, home town, home street was always the most important thing for them. State elections, really influencing their lives always were primary, and the federal ones, deciding who will take the power in distant Hofburg, were secondary. Usually people just saw elections as an opportunity to send their own representative to the parliament to defend their regional interests. Another thing I noticed – that, because of the differences between ideology, culture and psychology of different inhabitants of our Federation, they usually understood the regional matters quite well, without understanding the way of thinking, needs and necessities even of their closest neighbours. This is what happened when people of republican states voted for the abolition of the monarchy in the monarchical ones – and certain demagogues tried to portray that as an act of popular will. During this times I very often thought – what would happen next? What if, for example, the Christian majority of our Federation would vote for the ban of Islam, ignoring, for example, the will of Albanian people? Would it be democratic and justified?

It is quite clear, gentlemen, that in its current form the Federation only causes strife and hatred between different groups and states. It seems that we have forgotten what its main aim is – to protect us against foreign enemies, guarantee safety and cooperation between its different people. Maybe it is time to remember that and ensure that true freedom or brotherhood, not the sensless dictatorship of Hofburg, prevails in these lands? The federal authorities should deal with federal matters – such as foreign affairs and diplomacy, military matters, global financial questions. But it should not interfere with completely internal matters of each state, should not endanger cultural and political identity of each of them, should not try to take our right, languages, faith or preferred practices of governance from us. The complete dictatorship of majority that some of the centralists try to propagate is contrary to the common sense – as I have said, Federation is inhabited by completely different people, of alien traditions, preferences, history, and it is absurd, when, for example, people of Slovakia are asked to decide, what shoes should the people of Albania wear. I believe that the time is ripe to reform the Federation along moderate confederalist lines – or it would fall apart, or become a mechanism of tyranny and oppression.

- Graf Peter von der Pahlen, Chancellor of Silesia

Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Aye
Statement of Fundamental Principles: Nay
Acceptance of a Unitary System: Nay
Principles of this Federation Clause: Nay
Presidential Republic Proposal: Aye
Parliamentary Republic Proposal: Nay
Act of Name: Nay
Establishment of Federal Supremacy: Nay
Assurance of State's Rights: Aye
 
Last edited:

Keperry

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Mr. von der Pahlen is too late to make any proposal for moderate confederalism that can be examined and voted upon by this Convention, and I am afraid that he will be unable to convince any reasonable member of this Convention with his many hollow fallacies, as much as he might try.

Though I would not expect a monarchist to understand, the current doctrine of federal supremacy is in fact the farthest thing from the old way of the Hapsburgs. Unlike the Hapsburg Emperor or the King of Silesia, the federal government is democratically elected by the people to represent them. It is not some sinister autocracy as Mr. Pahlen would have you believe. So much of his argument is predicated upon the assumption that the Hofburg (and even that appellation is deceptive, since, as we have all seen quite often, since the federal government is hardly a single faceless entity and its members are usually quite incapable of agreeing on anything) is a body removed from the people and hostile to their will, when it is in fact an extension of the people's will. With this fallacy undermined, much of his rhetoric simply falls apart.

He goes on to assume that the goal and the agenda of all federalists is the cultural assimilation of all the states and the theft of their unique identities. This could not be farther from the truth. While there are indeed some who hold such views, they are hardly the majority, and their attempts can and will be checked by the rest of the people's representatives. I, for example, am quite a strong advocate for federal supremacy (though not the strongest, since I oppose a unitary state), but I think that the cultural and linguistic autonomy of each state and people of the Federation is one of our most important principles. Slovaks, more than anyone else, have learned what it means for your culture to be smothered and stifled, and we refuse to endure that fate again and would not wish it on anyone else. But this is not a reason to oppose federal supremacy. It is a strange leap in logic to assume that federal supremacy must mean that we will all speak one language and go to one church. It does not logically follow that the consequence of federal supremacy must be cultural assimilation. That argument is simply a scarecrow meant to frighten the people. The need for cultural autonomy does not translate into the need for political autonomy so long as a certain level of political autonomy is preserved, and that level is more than preserved under a federal system in which the central government is sovereign over the states. If nothing else, it is hard to imagine all the men of the federal government, coming from so many different lands, speaking so many different languages, following so many different religions, agreeing to a standard to which all others should be assimilated. Despite the Silesian delegate's claims, the federal government has neither the capacity nor the inclination to rob everyone of their identities.

In addition, Mr. von der Pahlen is ignoring the full text of the law, or at least the one that I have proposed. Unilateral secession is illegal. If the majority of the people of Silesia were truly so miserable under this Federation that they simply could not bear it anymore then there could be negotiations with the federal government, and if their grievances were found to be legitimate then they could be allowed to pursue independence. However, states cannot simply declare themselves independent left and right. This would only lead to chaos and would be ripe for abuse by power-hungry demagogues, as we saw with the Hungarian secession.

It is quite alarming that Mr. von der Pahlen so flippantly dismisses the revolutionary spirit and ideals that do, indeed, tie us together. We may not share the same interpretations of our ideals, but the at least some of the ideals themselves are clearly in all our hearts. Mr. von der Pahlen is clearly very concerned about freedom, for example, even though his interpretation of it is wrong, and even though he lacks other core Danubian values like republicanism.

Finally, as I would expect from a monarchist, Mr. von der Pahlen shows a fundamental misunderstanding about what democracy means, at least in the context of modern Danubia. It is not simply, as he disparages it, the will of the majority, without any checks upon it. In a democracy all men are equal and all men have rights. One of those rights is freedom of religion, so Islam or any other religion could not be simply abolished by a vote of the majority, as Mr. von der Pahlen claims. All men also have the right to vote for their head of state, and to be eligible, at some point, to be voted for to become head of state, the reason for this being that all men are equal and that no man can be sovereign over or subject to another. As such, a monarchy can never be democratic, no matter how much support it receives, and abolishing monarchies is safeguarding democracy rather than infringing upon it or upon anyone's rights. Democracy is the people's will combined with the protection of freedom and equality.

There has been strife and hatred in this Federation, yes, but it has usually been caused by those who had an unreasonably inflated view of the extent of states' rights and confederalism, as in 1854, those who think that a monarchy made up of subjects is better than a republic made up of citizens, as in 1857, or both, as in 1862. The current system is not perfect, yes, but that is because we have too weak in our support of federalism and republicanism, not because we have been too strong. Monarchism and confederalism, which at this point are inextricably linked, have been thoroughly discredited time and time again, and Danubian blood has been shed over and over to keep the Federation free from their vile clutches. Confederalism and monarchism have brought nothing but chaos and death, and we must be sure to craft a system in which they will no longer be able to lay the Federation low. Now is the time, fellow Convention members, when we can and must save our federal, democratic republic.
 

Marschalk

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The hypocrisy of the left has always amused me. Ensuring the supremacy of the will of the people means limiting and denying it, just in order to implement your own doubtful ideals like republicanism (even if the inhabitants of the states themselves hate these ideals!). If a state wants to secede, it should humbly ask the federal authority (which will be, of course, very impartial!), whether you can, and if it says you cannot, you must just remain under its boot. In fact, Mr Kysely wants a dictatorship of one ideology, of his own republican centralism, which he erroneously considers as the only true and sacred form of democracy, ignoring the fact that democratic ideology puts the will of the people above everything, not certain dogmatic principles.

- Graf Peter von der Pahlen, Chancellor of Silesia
 

Keperry

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The hypocrisy of the left has always amused me. Ensuring the supremacy of the will of the people means limiting and denying it, just in order to implement your own doubtful ideals like republicanism (even if the inhabitants of the states themselves hate these ideals!). If a state wants to secede, it should humbly ask the federal authority (which will be, of course, very impartial!), whether you can, and if it says you cannot, you must just remain under its boot. In fact, Mr Kysely wants a dictatorship of one ideology, of his own republican centralism, which he erroneously considers as the only true and sacred form of democracy, ignoring the fact that democratic ideology puts the will of the people above everything, not certain dogmatic principles.

- Graf Peter von der Pahlen, Chancellor of Silesia

What, exactly, is doubtful about republicanism, Mr. von der Pahlen?

You yourself have just excoriated the idea that the will of the majority should be put above everything, and now you criticize me for having the view that you have criticized? The contortions into which you must twist yourself are really quite amusing. Democracy does not simply mean the will of the majority. The will of the majority should be obeyed whenever possible, yes, but all people are collectively and individually assured certain rights and liberties, and all people are equal.

I think that Mr. von der Pahlen and his ilk live in a different world from the real one. In their world, the Civil War has never happened, and it has never been proven with blood that monarchists will inevitably try to seize power if left unchecked and that monarchism is an inherently undemocratic ideology incompatible with the Federation's ideals and practical stability. In their world, the Hungarian secession has never happened, and the dizzying heights of folly and destruction to which unchecked states' rights and the ability to unilaterally secede inevitably lead have never been demonstrated as firmly and incontrovertibly as they have in reality. In fact, I think that in their world, the Revolution never happened, and never established that the Federation is a democratic republic based on freedom, equality, and justice. The right wing is living in 1847.

I notice that Mr. von der Pahlen has not bothered to dispute the vast majority of my criticisms of him, so I can only take this to mean that he tacitly accepts them and acknowledges that I am right. It is certainly good that he has, therefore, abandoned such ridiculous notions as the alleged conspiracy of the magically-united Hofburg entity to steal everyone's culture that served as such important foundations of his arguments, though it is disconcerting that he continues to make the same arguments even though they are now based on nothing.
 

DensleyBlair

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Known popularly as Liberalen's "final speech", the following extract was found in his journal a few hours after his death.

I contest this election knowing full well I may not survive to see it's conclusion. This is why I have joined with Hr. Spiros – far better a nation without a foreign minister than without a president. I fear the pneumonia may be nigh returning, while the stress of the war did little to help my old wounds heal. If this is indeed my final piece, then I shall be brief. I do not wish to linger on with too much sentimentality when my time has come. I shall part only with this:

One day, I shall come back – though, in truth, if you so allow it, my spirit will live on forever in Danubian liberalism. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs, and prove to me I am not mistaken in mine as I entrust the future of our nation – our glorious Federation – to you all.

Vale.

W.L.
 

Guilu

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One of Papp's allies in the Convention thought it good to participate in a "debate" with Kysely, despite the former's advice.

Mr. Kysely, you simply ignore that the Congress of the Danube, with all its democratic pretense, has proved time and again its ability to do harm to the nations of this Federation. You mentionned the uprisings of the Hungarians - yet your views only show your blind hatred for their people. The Hungarians rose first in 1848, so that their nation may finally stand for itself, as did the other nations that now constitute our federation. The Spring of Nations of 1848 is not the legend that runs through these streets, of travelling from Bratislava to Vienna to celebrate Metternich's subterfuge of crowning himself while "freeing" the peoples of the Federation. The revolution was stolen by the federalists from the very start, from the moment our first constitution was signed, and ever since they have sought to impose their narrow views on lands they have never stepped foot on. The event that you pretend unites us all, is the one that should have torn the Empire apart. It only stood together in an alliance of circumstance, a military alliance against the devourers around, not, as you pretend, as the federation of democracies of popular will, but as the confederation of nations it should have remained. Yet, under the orders of the Vienna, we have become no better than the tyrannies we oppose, if not worse given the inexistant amount of years we have gone through without Congress-approved bloodshed.

The strife that has plagued this Federation comes from this error of the federalists, this misunderstanding of the aspirations of our peoples and their nations, and their one-minded goal to impose a single model upon them all, regardless of what they may want. The alliance of monarchists and confederalists is also one of circumstance, against men like you, Mr. Kysely, who hold nothing but disdain for the vast majority of the people you are supposed to govern. The Congress that was supposed to safeguard the independance of our nations is the one that has been the one to put them into chains again, and that is why we are here today, to right this and write a constitution to ensure that the ideals of 1848, those you hold so dear, are respected and not twisted into what Vienna believes is best for her.

((No, Metternich is no longer a unanimously good figure. Yes, I have changed my votes.))
((If you want to answer, you're free to call the orator by some Hungarian or Croatian name. Whichever suits you best.))

((EDIT : This is all supposed to be Week 4 material by the way :D))
 
Last edited:

Jackbollda

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Article for the Continuity of Law and Order: Aye
Statement of Fundamental Principles: Aye
Acceptance of a Unitary System: Nay
Principles of this Federation Clause: Aye
Presidential Republic Proposal: Nay
Parliamentary Republic Proposal: Aye
Act of Name: Nay
Establishment of Federal Supremacy: Nay
Assurance of States' Rights: Aye

My free, fair and completely legitimate trade union would be harmed by centralization. I represent the people, forever.
Steadfastly,
Herr von Treidich
 

Gen. Marshall

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I fear that there is not enough support for a unitary Danubian Republic. It is time to support the second-best alternative.

Statement of Fundamental Principles: Aye from Nay

And since we are apparently voting on it:

Assurance of States' Rights, a.k.a. Assurance of Secession, Contradiction and Anarchy: Nay
 

theAhawk

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Known popularly as Liberalen's "final speech", the following extract was found in his journal a few hours after his death.

I contest this election knowing full well I may not survive to see it's conclusion. This is why I have joined with Hr. Spiros – far better a nation without a foreign minister than without a president. I fear the pneumonia may be nigh returning, while the stress of the war did little to help my old wounds heal. If this is indeed my final piece, then I shall be brief. I do not wish to linger on with too much sentimentality when my time has come. I shall part only with this:

One day, I shall come back – though, in truth, if you so allow it, my spirit will live on forever in Danubian liberalism. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs, and prove to me I am not mistaken in mine as I entrust the future of our nation – our glorious Federation – to you all.

Vale.

W.L.

((What have I started? Now I am going to be forced to include ever more cryptic references just to keep up... Well played, my friend, well played...))

((theAhawk I was wondering why the "Assurance of State's Rights" proposal wasn't included on your list, is it not up for vote?))

((Because I am blind apparently... [Though for some reason most people are voting on it anyway...] You should also be voting on whether to adopt the Assurance of State's Rights.))
 

Keperry

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There it is again, pretending that Vienna or the Hofburg or whatever you wish to call it is a single entity with a single agenda focused on domination and plunder. This is simply a fantasy, a falsehood that allows the right to live out its dreams of being the victim rather than the victimizer as it is in reality. This conspiracy you describe is impossible. For it to be possible, all the people in Danubia or at least the majority would have to agree on it, since the federal government is democratic and therefore an extension of the people's will, but it is quite impossible to get Danubians, people or politicians, to agree on much of anything beyond our core revolutionary values of freedom and equality, and I do not think that anyone thinks that we should be using the federal government in the way you accuse us of using it. It is simply not true. You are describing things that have never happened and that will never happened. As I said, it leads me to think that you and your ideological compatriots are living in another world, another history. It has been demonstrated again and again and again that confederalism will bring nothing but chaos and pain to this Federation. As much as you might try to lie about it, I do not show blind hatred to the Hungarians, I merely bring them up because they were the ones to secede. If it had been another state then I would be talking about another state. Stop hiding behind hollow excuses. Any attempt to compare the current federal government to any tyranny, past or present, is nothing but an unpatriotic lie blind to reality. Please, for the sake of the Federation, I ask you and your fellow rightists to open your eyes and stop lying.
 

yourworstnightm

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Known popularly as Liberalen's "final speech", the following extract was found in his journal a few hours after his death.

I contest this election knowing full well I may not survive to see it's conclusion. This is why I have joined with Hr. Spiros – far better a nation without a foreign minister than without a president. I fear the pneumonia may be nigh returning, while the stress of the war did little to help my old wounds heal. If this is indeed my final piece, then I shall be brief. I do not wish to linger on with too much sentimentality when my time has come. I shall part only with this:

One day, I shall come back – though, in truth, if you so allow it, my spirit will live on forever in Danubian liberalism. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs, and prove to me I am not mistaken in mine as I entrust the future of our nation – our glorious Federation – to you all.

Vale.

W.L.

((Now I am imagined a aged Liberalen played by William Hartnell))
 
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