A Fan Discussion of BATTLETECH Free Update 1.9

[wolfhoundtoo]

This thread is discussing the free update coming up. In that context quirks for the older mechs aren't happening no matter how many people post here otherwise.

Whether it would make for a good DLC is an entirely different discussion and no doubt should be in its own thread as it will certainly deviate from the topic at hand rather quickly.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

This thread is discussing the free update coming up. In that context quirks for the older mechs aren't happening no matter how many people post here otherwise.

Whether it would make for a good DLC is an entirely different discussion and no doubt should be in its own thread as it will certainly deviate from the topic at hand rather quickly.

As the thread originator, I respectfully disagree.

I want our fellow BATTLETECH gamers to speak of BATTLETECH, Free Updates in general and Update 1.9 specifically.

ALL comments are welcome. And if I need I need to, I’ll initiate a request to the Mods to separate off this or that to the Bickering or Diversion thread. But just to be clear, ALL the above posts are fine and are on topic for the thread I have started here. :bow:

 

[Apocal]

The problem is that they made quite a few of them a bit too powerful. Marauder, obviously, but also the likes of the Warhammer and Anni. 20% more damage? Nuts. Especially when combined with HM weaponry.

The Warhammer isn't actually that good though, even with the quirk? It's better than the Catapult-K2 (depending on where you roll with heat management), arguably worse than a Marauder, even if you're not headcapping people, definitely worse than a Black Knight or the Orion in terms of total damage/armor profile. Without the quirk, it would be a relatively worse off mech than the Kurita Catapult.

As for the Annihilator, it would still reach 316 damage (quint AC/5s, quint MLs, max armor, JJs) with HM weapons or the BSC. 316 damage is just about enough to consistently dumpster everything short of an Atlas.

These are completely different beast than say the Rifleman's, Phoenix Hawks, Vulcans, or Assassins (coils not withstanding). Which isn't to say that the Assassin's isn't powerful, especially in the right situation, but that's a big part of it... it is situational. I've still got good reason to use a Blackjack instead, and that's quirkless. The Assassin's adds flavor, gives it a bit of focus, role-wise, yet it doesn't overwhelm everything else.

Three of those are noted as being pretty subpar on the tabletop. And "subpar" is being generous to the Vulcan.

The permissive hard point configuration here is the real problem with distinctiveness, not really the quirks. Significantly restrain the hard point system and you would have meaningfully different chassis. Had HBS gone with Heavy and light hard points, along with typed missile hard points, Mechs would be more than a skin for a weight class.

while things won’t change in this iteration, I’m hoping battletech 2 really reigns in the hard points instead of going the quirk route

MW5 was going to go with "no mechlab" until they got pitchforks from the community. They (PGI) went with sized hardpoints instead and it barely curbed the outcry on release. The most popular mods for this game include a hugely expanded mechlab (engine swaps, engine sinks, armor types, etc.).

To me, it would be a very disappointing Battletech title without serious mechlab functionality. They want mechs to be more than TT-style gunbags? Fine. The 3D weapon models have to mesh well and look good? Fine. Make sure the medium laser doesn't roll over literally everything else in 3025? Fine. So hardpoints are fine, but further restricting them is no-no territory for me.

Because a good part of the fun of a BT/MW game is thinking up builds that perform better, faster, more reliably.

Now where I will say needs work is objectives other than "kill the other side's mechs" or setting up contexts where the single optimum isn't slinging as much raw damage as possible at the enemy, while avoiding the same for yourself. Flashpoints are good, but not quite all the way there just yet.

 

[Axterix13]

The Warhammer isn't actually that good though, even with the quirk? It's better than the Catapult-K2 (depending on where you roll with heat management), arguably worse than a Marauder, even if you're not headcapping people, definitely worse than a Black Knight or the Orion in terms of total damage/armor profile. Without the quirk, it would be a relatively worse off mech than the Kurita Catapult.

Making the same mistake as the other guy. It doesn't really matter that the stock isn't that great. It matters what the player can do with it. And the Black Knight is the one that is definitely worse due to it, not the Warhammer.

As for the Annihilator, it would still reach 316 damage (quint AC/5s, quint MLs, max armor, JJs) with HM weapons or the BSC. 316 damage is just about enough to consistently dumpster everything short of an Atlas.

I'd consider that pretty poor damage, actually. Its stock load out replaced with ++damage versions would exceed that. And if you start tossing in Ultras, well, yeah... and then it gets 20% on top of all that. But do notice that the first thing you do is not use a stock Anni, without jump jets and with that crappy armor... and you rip out all of its weaponry and rework the mech from the ground up.

Three of those are noted as being pretty subpar on the tabletop. And "subpar" is being generous to the Vulcan.

And yet those are the ones that get the more balanced, flavorful, quirks.

Now, if something like the 8/12 Cicada got a 20% boost to energy weapon damage, well, no biggie, because that mech is subpar, and there really isn't much you can do with it. Even with coils, it would be somewhat self balancing, since the heat would go up with the damage. With a Warhammer, though, if you want to use some of the bigger energy weapons on a heavy mech, it's the no-brainer. Called shots, aside, of course.

Speaking of the Anni, though, I wonder if we'll get the 1E version... 4 PPCs, 2 extra mediums, 41 heat sinks... Obviously, won't have the quirk, but could function as a super Awesome. Canon timeline-wise, it is pretty close to existing at this point, too, as it comes about post Battle of Misery.

 

[Unruly Marmite]

Then I think it is pretty safe to say that, unless you're the AI, the bets are off. Players will look at both mechs, and they'll make a Black Knight out of their Warhammer, because a "War Knight"'s 20% extra damage beats the tiny bit of extra armor a Black Knight can hold.

I don't know how you intend to replicate a Black Knight when you have five tons less of weight available, but good luck to you. Your hypothetical 'War Knight' is going to lose out somewhere, whether it be in already poor armour or firepower. Maybe it'd be a bit heavier in terms of damage, but I wouldn't take it.

On top of that, on the assumption that a custom version of each boats Medium Lasers- which isn't exactly far-fetched- the Boathammer carries 6 ML and 2 SL for 228 Alpha, with 17 Heat Sinks and 1345 armour. The Boat Knight carries 8 ML and 2 SL for 240 Alpha, with 16 Heat Sinks and 1400 armour , making it superior in almost every way. I won't dispute that there are builds in which the Warhammer outperforms the Black Knight, there's always going to be given the power of it's quirk. But stating that the Warhammer is always better than the Black Knight is flat out wrong.

Besides, take that quirk away and what do you have left for the Warhammer? A complete waste of metal that's outperformed by the Grasshopper, the Archer, the Black Knight and the Orion. Imagine the crying and sobbing that would take place over that.

 

[Apocal]

Making the same mistake as the other guy. It doesn't really matter that the stock isn't that great. It matters what the player can do with it. And the Black Knight is the one that is definitely worse due to it, not the Warhammer.

No, I'm not.

The Warhammer-6R gets under 450 damage for a triple SNPPC (++dmg) setup, for +66 heat with max sinks, but all of it spreads on a PS. The Warhammer also has worse armor in the process. The Marauder-3R pushes 410 with a triple UAC/5 + ML(++dmg) setup, for +63 heat, none of which is subject to PS DR, with more armor and the cherry on-top of the lance damage reduction. Obviously this is straight end-game gear we're talking about but if you strip the need for ++ weapons, the MAD-3R's damage is still decent whereas the Warhammer drops to something like a 270 or 300 (still spread), which is nowhere near practical enough to drop mechs.

The Black Knight pushes 270-305 with a mixed LL/ML++dmg fit with some heat issues however the armor is near-maxed except for the legs, which is what I meant by "a better damage/armor profile." In other words, it can take five skull 'oh heck' moments like a heavy, instead of going open and needing to fall back behind your other mechs. The Orion flat carries a AC/20, 4x MLs and 2x SRMs, up to over 400 damage with ++dmg variants, with heat as its only downside and still better armor than the triple SNPPC Warhammer.

And without quirks, a stock Warhammer-6R is a Catapult-K2 with SRMs and SLs.

I'd consider that pretty poor damage, actually. Its stock load out replaced with ++damage versions would exceed that. And if you start tossing in Ultras, well, yeah... and then it gets 20% on top of all that. But do notice that the first thing you do is not use a stock Anni, without jump jets and with that crappy armor... and you rip out all of its weaponry and rework the mech from the ground up.

Well yes, because the stock mechs are usually fit like crap and I like winning. But even if I did use the stock Anni, no ++dmg weapons, the damage without BSC would come out to... drumroll... ~300.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

The last 12 Mechs that HBS put out, all had Quitks.


I wonder if the upcoming 16 Mech Variants will have Quirks?

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

I wonder if the upcoming 16 Mech Variants will have Quirks?

If I had to guess, I'd say the quirks are purely chassis based. So, if a non-quirked mech gets a variant, still no quirk. If a quirked chassis gets a new variant, it also gets that chassis quirk.

I could be mistaken, however I am guessing that is how it would work.

 

[Abramsrunner]

I'm going to take a guess at the 16 mech variants.

Commando-1C for the AC/2 memes.
Firestarter-K to kill your dreams for an early game salvage FS9-H.
Locust-1Vb the one Royal Locust to rule them all.
Raven-2X so the FS9-H would have competition for a 35 ton striker.

Crab-27sl for Crab Raving.
Hunchback-4SP so there is a Hunchback for every build.
Shadowhawk-2K to make you think its a Griffin-1N.
Trebuchet-5S just because.

Cataphract-0X OpFor needs more ECM.
Dragon-1C for extra AC/2 memes.
Marauder-3D for super cool 3D effects.
Thunderbolt-5Sb because streaks don't exist yet.

Annihilator-1E for lightning bolt god.
AS7-A heavily armored SRM carrier.
Battlemaster-1Gb for mastering battle.
Zeus-6T its a Zeus-6S with 5 extra points of damage.

 

[Bregil]

Dragon-1C for extra AC/2 memes.

Personally I'm hoping for a Dragon-1G but I'm not sure if HBS would consider the Grand Dragon a variant or a whole new chassis.

 

[BARBOSA (Aries)]

I hope they bring a SLDF light mech variant to go with our Griffin, Black Knight and Atlas. Preferably a 35t to keep the max tonnage for class theme.

 

[TostitoBandito]

Speaking of SLDF, they should really allow opfor to field the SLDF Atlas, Highlander, Black Knight and Griffin at this point. Heavy Metal introduced the Annihilator and Bull Shark which are both in the opfor and pretty easy to find, and also are essentially SLDF mechs in terms of free tonnage due to endo/FF or whatever. The HGN-732B used to be sexy because it had more free tonnage for weapons than a King Crab or AS7-D, but now it's outclassed in that respect by both the Annihilator and Bull Shark. I say just turn them all loose. We've already got lostech all over the damn place, though it would be fun to be able to salvage some every now and again. Just make them quite a bit rarer than most normal mech variants.

 

[Havamal]

This thread is discussing the free update coming up. In that context quirks for the older mechs aren't happening no matter how many people post here otherwise.

Whether it would make for a good DLC is an entirely different discussion and no doubt should be in its own thread as it will certainly deviate from the topic at hand rather quickly.

As the thread originator, I respectfully disagree.

I want our fellow BATTLETECH gamers to speak of BATTLETECH, Free Updates in general and Update 1.9 specifically.

ALL comments are welcome. And if I need I need to, I’ll initiate a request to the Mods to separate off this or that to the Bickering or Diversion thread. But just to be clear, ALL the above posts are fine and are on topic for the thread I have started here. :bow:

Greetings Mechwarriors,

Let us please take our cues for what is the topic in the thread from the OP post, though perhaps some clarity could be added into the OP post regarding the topic if at question.
That said community members should please always avoid posting in a manner that appears to be self moderating this forum.

Thank you. Carry on.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

The following edit has been added to:this thread’s original post. All questions, comments and constructive criticisms are welcome:


EDIT: Mitch has shared select portions of BATTLETECH Free Update 1.9 with us. But this is by no means an a complete list. No doubt various code fixes, map refinements and perhaps even other features and settings that are still being worked, but just not yet confirmed for inclusion in 1.9

As such discussion of what might yet make the cut for 1.9, or what you would like to see in 1.9 or the next Update is both welcome and encouraged. This just might serve to help HBS parse through our preferences and hopes for BATTLETECH moving forward.

However please keep in mind that HBS’s resources are finite and given HBS’s work on a number of projects, competition for them is high. :bow:

 

[Abramsrunner]

I hope they bring a SLDF light mech variant to go with our Griffin, Black Knight and Atlas. Preferably a 35t to keep the max tonnage for class theme.

I don't think any of the 35 tonners we have in game do have an advanced version with SLDF tech on them, The Royal Locust would be pretty crazy though, 5 tons of armor with 6 tons for weapons at ludicrous speed.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I don't think any of the 35 tonners we have in game do have an advanced version with SLDF tech on them, The Royal Locust would be pretty crazy though, 5 tons of armor with 6 tons for weapons at ludicrous speed.

The Mongoose is a favorite SLDF Royal BattleMech, though like the Hatchetman it would require HBS to craft its Mech Data itself.

 

[Axterix13]

Speaking of SLDF, they should really allow opfor to field the SLDF Atlas, Highlander, Black Knight and Griffin at this point. Heavy Metal introduced the Annihilator and Bull Shark which are both in the opfor and pretty easy to find, and also are essentially SLDF mechs in terms of free tonnage due to endo/FF or whatever. The HGN-732B used to be sexy because it had more free tonnage for weapons than a King Crab or AS7-D, but now it's outclassed in that respect by both the Annihilator and Bull Shark. I say just turn them all loose. We've already got lostech all over the damn place, though it would be fun to be able to salvage some every now and again. Just make them quite a bit rarer than most normal mech variants.

Only if there is an option to do the reverse... to remove the Anni and M3s currently in use, and replace them with versions that play by the same rules as everyone else (so a non-LosTech/early-clan Tech M3, a 2/3 Anni... or one that pays the weight price for being a 3/5), and which also majorly cranks up the cost and/or rarity of those SLDF mechs in the stores.

Or at the very least, disables even more stuff that shouldn't be there from showing up, keeping the current status quo.

 

[Axterix13]

I don't know how you intend to replicate a Black Knight when you have five tons less of weight available, but good luck to you. Your hypothetical 'War Knight' is going to lose out somewhere, whether it be in already poor armour or firepower. Maybe it'd be a bit heavier in terms of damage, but I wouldn't take it.

1.5 tons. That's the difference in free weight, not 5. Because a 300 rated engine weighs more than a 280 rated one, and a 10% of your weight is structure, so that's 0.5 gone from that. And if you want that extra armor you can mount, that's another 0.5 tons gone. So 1 ton... that's the free weight advantage an armored up Black Knight has to try and make up a 20% boost to energy damage.

And as far as the slightly lower armor/structure goes, if you kill/cripple enemies, they do less damage to you, which in turn means your mechs take less damage. So that 20% extra damage on a Warhammer will most likely result in your mechs losing less armor throughout the course of the battle than a Black Knight gains from the extra weight. The Warhammer just comes out ahead.

 

[Apocal]

It would be nice to have the HBK-4SP available, along with the MAD-3L, the SHD-2K and a few others. As far as variants go at least.

 

[ronhatch]

On variants:
The problematic and interesting thing is, that on one hand it's pretty difficult to add variants to some mechs, while on the other the new weapons allow variants that go far beyond 3025. For example: we've one Enforcer in the game, the 4R, which comes with an AC/10, a LL, and an SL. There are no variants before 3025, at least none that I know of. However - the 5D model introduced in 3050 swaps the AC/10 and the LL for an LBX-10 and ER LL plus an additional JJ - perfectly doable with what is in the game right now.

I'm very undogmatic when it comes to "lore" and "canon" - I tend to focus on the game and fun, if it's not too much of a stretch. With the inflow of future goodies being part of the game, future Mech variants would be possible as well, as shown above. The thing is, that THE PLAYERS can build a 5D just fine, if they want to, and I'd be more interested in upgrading the AI option than in backdowngrading the players here.

I could imagine that others see this different, though-

This is exactly why the mod I would most like to make is one that changes the way salvage works so that IF two variants have the same underlying chassis definition in the files, they stack when parts are acquired. (NONE of the existing variants share a chassis definition... but my testing shows that even if you change them to do that, they don't salvage together. It's based on the fully kitted-out variant, not the stripped mech.) There are some mods that change salvage rules, but not in quite the way I want. The bottom line is that I want the AI mechs to be just as customizable as the player's, without the number of variants you have to collect going through the roof. And without the anything-goes nature of the mods that allow you to combine parts from different variants even when those variants have entirely different hardpoints.