A faction update is desperately needed

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GermanDave

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Feb 15, 2014
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One of the most glaring holes in Hoi4 is the faction system or lack thereof. Factions are just alliances for you and your war buddies with little to no membership rules.
  • Another country can just randomly steal another faction member from your faction, making faction leadership status irrelevant
  • Ideological indifference (Communist China joining Allies)
  • Geo-strategic indifference (The Asian Co-prosperity sphere being border-less)
  • Hoi4 modders cannot address the issue nearly as well as Stellaris modders (a mod that tried to address the distance issue is dead).
  • New alliances don't form dynamically (if Allies capitulate prior to 100% world tension, democracies won't form a new alliance)
Instead of adding some much needed depth and essential QOL features, PDX just keeps fishing for those nasty Steam reviews. The DLC derailment after NSB doesn't make the faintest sense to me.
 
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Agree that this base system needs a lot of work.

Also cooperation between factions is very limited and there should be more cooperation.

Especially because now there's many many factions due to all the expansions.

I'd like the faction leader to have more control over diplomatic things the other faction members do such as declare wars.

I'd rather the focus be the war effort of world war II. And not starting world war III in the middle of world war II because Portugal or random minor country decides it wants to declare war on a major.
 
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Factions leader should not get bonus!
Every factions member get the bonus, that is why they want to be in faction.

Why faction leader get more spies? No good reason.
But all faction member spies together collect more info than one country could! So everyone benefit!
That is how faction buff should work. The leader is just ”fluff” or political name for country that is orhestrating the thing.

Factions should vote on certain things. Do we declare war Against country x, do we attact to europe via Africa or do we make d-day… it is about Co-operating, collecting resources, collection information, concentrating certain things.
 
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I just don't like how any random minor with a 'world conquest' Focus Tree like Greece can declare war on another faction, without any way of stopping them by anyone. Leader or not.
It doesn't make any sense most of the time - they declare war even if the targeted nation is friendly and actually helping you fight another faction...
Only way to stop this is immediately kicking the offender from the faction - but you usually have only a few seconds to do that, before they call ALL of your faction members... And ofc AI cannot do that at all.
 
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Counterpoint - the craziness of the faction system from what is mentioned above does mirror some of the real life craziness of the Axis at least, Hitler probably wished he could kick Italy out when they attacked Greece without telling him...

Furthermore, given how wonky diplomacy is in other paradox titles (specifically stellaris and how that got dubiously "better" with entire dlcs dedicated to diplomacy), I'm not sure it's a good idea to mess with it further... better the devil you know.

I would like some fixes to be made however, like Britain shouldn't be inviting then kicking people out of the allies for generating WT, only to reinvite them again moments later. Over and over again.

BTW, thank you for not titling the thread "anti-faction bias".
 
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Why faction leader get more spies? No good reason.
Spy master and faction leader do not have to be the same country -- IIRC any country with a spy agency, three upgrades to that agency, and 50pp to spend can become spy master.
 
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Spy master and faction leader do not have to be the same country -- IIRC any country with a spy agency, three upgrades to that agency, and 50pp to spend can become spy master.
The HOI4 wiki becoming the Spy Master confirms your statement. The wiki section was just updated by me from HOI4v 1.9 to 1.14 by adding reference footnotes. Otherwise, the section remained unchanged from version 1.9.
 
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i wouldn't put this as top priority, but agreed it's way up there. would probably be inside my top 5 biggest issues with the game too.
Geo-strategic indifference (The Asian Co-prosperity sphere being border-less)
my favorite is that if you want to, you can meme the world by declaring on china + other nations to make them join cuf. you can make turkey and its guarantors, italy, and probably at least one other nation all join the chinese united front while historical focuses is on, and if you want you can do this as cuba or peru without leaving your core territory. this is a silly thing to do, but it shows some pretty clear flaws with how limited the faction mechanics are.

over the years in hoi 4, i've been screwed more by faction membership than i've found it helpful.
 
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Agree that this base system needs a lot of work.

Also cooperation between factions is very limited and there should be more cooperation.

Especially because now there's many many factions due to all the expansions.

I'd like the faction leader to have more control over diplomatic things the other faction members do such as declare wars.

I'd rather the focus be the war effort of world war II. And not starting world war III in the middle of world war II because Portugal or random minor country decides it wants to declare war on a major.
Mussolini did not ask Hitler, if he can attack Greece He just attacked and that caused postponing start of the Operation Barbarossa. IRL faction leader don't decide on behalf on faction members.
 
I just don't like how any random minor with a 'world conquest' Focus Tree like Greece can declare war on another faction, without any way of stopping them by anyone. Leader or not.
It doesn't make any sense most of the time - they declare war even if the targeted nation is friendly and actually helping you fight another faction...
Only way to stop this is immediately kicking the offender from the faction - but you usually have only a few seconds to do that, before they call ALL of your faction members... And ofc AI cannot do that at all.
also theres very few, but still present scripted dow's. In my long runs, i have to cheat-annex albania for italy(or any variant of it) otherwise it keep justifing/declaring war against albania(puppet of SU). more weirder that wans't ITA tag, but D01 or D03(one of these democratic italy).
 
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Mussolini did not ask Hitler, if he can attack Greece He just attacked and that caused postponing start of the Operation Barbarossa. IRL faction leader don't decide on behalf on faction members.
There's a huge difference between Italy attacking an unaffiliated minor like Greece and a minor country like Portugal declaring on a faction leader like USSR or Japan, creating a stupid scenario.

Especially when such moves are nonsensical or have no way to work except by making the faction leader do the work.

To me it's a design failure of allowing AI to take unhistorical focuses in historical games, at least while WWII is still going on.

If you want to do crazy stuff that's fine, but the AI can't handle normal games.
 
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Lots of great comments in this thread. I'll add my voice to the chorus since the nonsensical faction mechanics are my biggest gripe with the game as is.

I think there should be more game rules around factions that govern joining, leaving, and DOWs to avoid the horrid everybody vs everybody mess that happens on non-historical (or sometimes even historical when Italy's civil war messes up both tags). For example:

1. Ability to turn faction joining on and off for majors and minors,
2. Limiting DOWs to only faction majors or leader
3. Limiting numbers of wars that a faction can join at one time.

I know some of these might not be popular or difficult to implement with lots of conflicting focus trees, etc. but just wanted to give an idea of some of the things that perhaps the devs can come up with to improve. Ultimately, someday I'd love it if we could have options that let us have a number of smaller/regional wars happening at the same time. A general can dream.
 
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They did 1 change with the No Step Back DLC and the Baltics - if someone like communist Latvia does a wargoal focus, instead of giving them a wargoal directly it sends an event to their faction leader SOV 'asking them' for a war with a tag X.

IMO even more annoying than the wargoal, but at least you can say no and that's it. (Imagine being SOV and being asked every 70 days that 'Latvia wants to attack Estonia. Latvia wants to attack Finland. Latvia wants to attack Sweden. Latvia wants to attack United Kingom.' THE WHOLE ALLIES, ARE YOU KIDDING ME YOU LITTLE PIECE OF **** !!??:mad: :D ) ...

Anyway just a tip - if you want a more 'semi-historical' games turn off not just historical focus but also some smaller DLCs, like Bosphorus or Arms against Tyranny. Majors will still eventually attack these or make them join their faction but at least they won't start 50 different wars of their own and won't form 5 new factions...
 
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Now that you mention it, it is true that some of the factions in the game should have some rules, such as the Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere only being able to accept Asian members.
 
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  • Ideological indifference (Communist China joining Allies)
  • Geo-strategic indifference (The Asian Co-prosperity sphere being border-less)
  • Hoi4 modders cannot address the issue nearly as well as Stellaris modders (a mod that tried to address the distance issue is dead).
  • New alliances don't form dynamically (if Allies capitulate prior to 100% world tension, democracies won't form a new alliance)
You're absolutely right, these issues seem to be the main reasons why the non-historical mode is completely unplayable. On the other hand, it also prevents the game from creating a variable and interesting process like Europa Universalis 4 does when players exert influence on the world.

Of course, this might be related to the fact that the AI only uses the default tank/aircraft/ship design templates set by the designers for their respective countries? After all, I've never seen the Polish and Romanian alliance survive... their fixed design templates are too weak.
 
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There's a huge difference between Italy attacking an unaffiliated minor like Greece and a minor country like Portugal declaring on a faction leader like USSR or Japan, creating a stupid scenario.

Especially when such moves are nonsensical or have no way to work except by making the faction leader do the work.

To me it's a design failure of allowing AI to take unhistorical focuses in historical games, at least while WWII is still going on.

If you want to do crazy stuff that's fine, but the AI can't handle normal games.
even relatively historical things like uk attacking iran can be made senseless. if for example iran is part of comintern and actively fighting axis, that's a very different scenario to what we had in history. ai will still happily start a 3 way world war.
 
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