A.E.I.O.U.: Frederick the Erzschlafmütze and his divided Austria

A.E.I.O.U.: Frederick the Erzschlafmütze and his divided Austria

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Mingmung

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Hello there,

As we all know, Germany and its surroundings will get an update. One thing this update brings, is the split of big tags like Bavaria, Saxony, Pomerania and Silesia. This is because those tags weren't united (yet) historically, but split among different branches of the ruling families.

We'll see how Austria looks in tomorrow's developer diary, but we already know that the developers haven't shown interest in dividing it up into several tags. So, Austria seems to be the only noteworthy German tag left that could easily be split among its branches, as it wasn't united to begin with in 1444 (and not until around 1490, even). This was because of the treaty of Neuberg in 1379, when Austria was split among two bickering brothers who couldn't rule together. The Leopoldian and Albertinian lines of the house Habsburg were thus created.

1) So, why change the setup in the first place?
- Other dynasties get divided, why not Austria? Its rulers fought each other during numerous occasions and eventual unity of the Austrian lands was far from a certainty at the startdate of 1444.
- Austria's fate was intertwined with that of Bohemia and Hungary. They currently have quite an arbitrary event-chain involving Ladislaus the Posthumous, while the actual situation was far more complex and interesting. Involving all three regions (Austria, Hungary and Bohemia) would be good.
- Interesting historical rulers like Sigismund, Albrecht or Ulrich are completely left out.
- More historical flavour for more tags than just Austria; Imperial princes like Gorizia and Cilli are completely missing but did have a significant impact on the region.
- Properly portraying Austria's rise to power; where's the fun to begin as an united power? A divided Austria would truly bring history to life.

2) So, what's the historical setup in november 1444?

Leopoldinian line:

Frederick III - king/emperor of the HRE, duke of Inner Austria, regent of Tyrol and Austria.
Albrecht VI - regent of Further Austria, in a war agains the Swiss, brother of Frederick III.
Sigmund of Tyrol - count of Tyrol and Further Austria.

Albertinian line:
Ladislaus Posthumous - designated heir to both Bohemia and Hungary (although Wladyslaw was elected in Hungary and died at Varna), duke of Austria (modern Upper and Lower Austria; so, Austria above and below the Enns).

Here is a chart depicting the Habsburg (without Albrecht VI, as he was the younger brother of Frederick III):
unknown.png

Other Austrian nobles:
Ulrich of Cilli - son of Frederick II of Cilli, heir to the county of Cilli (1444) and future regent of Ladislaus.
Elisabeth of Montfort-Bregenz - countess of Bregenz.
Henry VI of Gorizia - count of Gorizia.

3) So, how can this be portrayed in the game? As one ruler has territories ruled by two different regents and all of the territories should have the possibility to be united with the rest of the Austrian lands? Austria should neither be too weak or too powerful, although a small buff is in order.

The way it could be portrayed in-game:
index.php

Keep in mind that this setup has been made with some new tags/provinces in mind (as we haven't seen the new Austria-setup yet). I used the map I made in a suggestion for the whole HRE (the Kleinstaaterei-thread, see my signature) as a basis, so some provinces are not in the game (yet).

4) So, how does it work? Well, first of all; Frederick III (Inner Austria = currently releasable Styria-tag) has two vassals (Ladislaus with Austria and Albrecht VI with Further Austria) and one ally/guarantee (Sigmund with Tyrol).

Why is Tyrol not a vassal as well? Well, Frederick attempted to delay the end of his regency over Sigmund, but this set him on a collision-course with the Tyrolean estates. So, he didn't have any or much control over the estates in Tyrol anymore. They later allied in 1446, so them being allied/guaranteed in 1444 is a small abstraction necessary to protect Tyrol against certain other tags (and Frederick was technically still its regent in 1444).

Sigmund was not a minor anymore, that's why he won't need a regent in-game (for gameplay-reasons), but Ladislaus still needs one. Frederick III could be duplicated for this (as both ruler and regent, like Albrecht-Achilles of Hohenzollern in the basegame) and a loyalty-modifier for Ladislaus would be in order, as well. Albrecht became duke of Futher Austria in 1446, but already was its regent in 1444. So, another small abstraction.

5) So, what did historically happen in this region?
August 1444 - Frederick III makes Albrecht VI regent of Further Austria and gives him the military command to fight against the Swiss.
1446 - Tyrolese rebels force Frederick III to release Sigmund from prison and end Frederick III's regency, Albrecht VI becomes duke of Further Austria.
1451 - Sigmund buys the county of Bregenz (first half of Vorarlberg).
1452 - Frederick III is coronated in Rome; Ulrich of Cilli and Bohemian and Austrian nobles siege Vienna and force Frederick III to release Ladislaus, Ulrich of Cilli becomes Ladislaus's main advisor.
1453 - Privilegium Maius, Austria becomes an archduchy.
1454 - Ulrich of Cilli inherits the county of Cilli from his father.
1456 - Ulrich of Cilli gets assassinated, a war between Frederick III and the counts of Görz starts; Frederick ultimately gets the Cilli lands and vassalises the counts of Görz in 1460 (Lienz revolted against Frederick III's rule in 1462).
1457 - Ladislaus Postumus dies in Prague because of cancer.
1458 - Albrecht VI gets Upper Austria (Linz) and lays claim on Lower Austria (Vienna), he secures Sigmund's support in exchange for Further Austria, but Sigmund returns Further Austria in 1461.
1462 - Albrecht VI wins the war against Frederick III and becomes Archduke of all Austria.
1463 - Albrecht VI dies and Frederick III inherits the Archduchy of Austria.
...
1490 - Sigmund is forced to abdicate in favour of Maximilian I by the Tyrolese; Maximilian unites all Habsburg dominions in one hand.

6) So, how can this chain of events be portrayed in the game? Well, there are numerous (interesting) ways to do this. First of all, there should be a small chance for Ladislaus to survive (so, Bohemia and Hungary could go to him under PU). There should also be a chance for Frederick III to slowly unite the Austrian lands (as historically happened through his and his son's efforts). And lastly, there should be a chance to play the alternate history-roads of the minor tags as well; an Austria under Albrecht VI, for example, or a Wittelsbach-controlled Tyrol (more on that later).

How could this work:

- Ladislaus' events should still start when he's 15 (so, in 1455). If he dies, an "Austrian Inheritance" event-chain for Albrecht VI and Frederick III starts. If he lives, Austria becomes independent and eventually gets Bohemia and Hungary as PU's (Bohemia and Hungary become "historical friends" to lower liberty desire). Ladislaus later on gets a claim to PU and integrate Styria (the realm of Frederick III) and maybe one for Tyrol/Further Austria, as well. Hungary might give him some later trouble, maybe, in the forms of noble rebellions. Maybe if he executes Mathias' brother after Ulrich's execution, for example. As historically happened.

- Currently, Ladislaus lives if he gets an heir within a month of him coming of age. This seems quite fair and should stay as is.

- If Ladislaus dies, Bohemia gets Podebrad as king (historical route), and Hungary gets to choose between Corvinus (historical route) or a PU under Frederick III. Frederick III would obviously get a PU claim on Hungary if he is denied.

- Austrian inheritance if Ladislaus dies: Styria gets an event to either grant all of Ladislaus' Austria (Upper/Lower Austria) to Albrecht VI and keep him as a vassal or receive Lower Austria from Ladislaus and release Albrecht VI who then rules independently over Further Austria and Upper Austria (so, just the Oberenns province with the capital of Linz), as historically happened. Albrecht VI's tag would then change to Austria, as well.

- Both Sigmund and Albrecht VI should have the infertile trait, as they never sired an (legitimate) heir.

- If Frederick III releases Albrecht VI with Upper Austria (historical route), Frederick III will get high autonomy in Lower Austria and Austrian rebels will rise to fight for Albrecht. Albrecht VI will also get a claim on the area of Lower Austria. He conquered this area, historically, before he died and it reverted back to Frederick III.

- If Albrecht VI dies while he is independent, has the Austria-tag and no heir, an event triggers so that Sigmund instantly gets Further Austria and Frederick III gets Austria. This happened historically.

- Ulrich of Cilli's assassination would be a side-event that could trigger between 1453 and 1455 (or in 1456 if Ladislaus lives on). Gorizia would get the option to give Frederick III the inheritance or keep Cilli and risk to go to war with them. If they decide for the latter, Frederick III gets an event to press his claims, get cores on western Carinthia and Cilli and declare a vassalisation CB on Gorizia, as happened historically. This event would obviously not fire if you're playing Cilli itself. It would be a bit like the Burgundian inheritance in that regard.

- Austria under Ladislaus has two options after Ulrich's assassination; to either execute Ladislaus Corvinus (with a stab-hit and negative opinion-modifier with Hungary as result, but curbing the nobility's influence as well) or to let him live (with a positive opinion-modifier with Hungary, as well as more influence of the nobility).

- The owner of Tyrol would get another side-event to buy Bregenz/Vorarlberg from the counts of Bregenz in the first few years of the game. This happened historically.

- Around 1487 there could be an event about George of Bavaria-Landshut buying Tyrol. Historically, Frederick, Maximilian and the Swabian League didn't fancy this and went to war and won. Sigmund eventually had to cede control of Tyrol over to Maximilian. The event could go three ways; Tyrol going to Austria, Tyrol going to Bavaria (with a CB for Frederick III as result) or staying as it is.

- If Sigmund dies while he is independent and has no heir, an event triggers so that the current ruler of Styria/Austria gets to instantly-annex Tyrol/Further Austria. This happened historically.

TL;DR-version, with the events you either get:
1) Ladislaus controlling Austria with two PU's (Bohemia and Hungary).
2) Styria uniting all of Austria (either quickly or slowly) and maybe getting Hungary into a PU.
3) Albrecht getting Austria and from there on out expanding into the rest of the Habsburg lands.
4) Tyrol who might get Bregenz and Further Austria and then has to expand on its own.

I hope the developers read this thread and take this seriously interesting chain of historical events into consideration. It would make the game a lot more fun and flavourful. Especially because there's more than one road, so it's not 'blatant' railroading.

Tagging in @Ofaloaf @Caligula Caesar and @neondt just in case.

Cheers!
 

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Sanguine Caesar

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Great thread as always @Mingmung , I'll be sure to read all of it as soon as I can, but for now I'd just like to focus on Gorizia and Cilli as I don't know enough about the others to comment all that much. ;)

- Ulrich of Cilli's assassination would be a side-event that could trigger between 1453 and 1455 (or in 1456 if Ladislaus lives on). Gorizia would get the option to give Frederick III the inheritance or keep Cilli and risk to go to war with them. If they decide for the latter, Frederick III gets an event to press his claims, get cores on western Carinthia and Cilli and declare a vassalisation CB on Gorizia, as happened historically. This event would obviously not fire if you're playing Cilli itself. It would be a bit like the Burgundian inheritance in that regard.
What about if the Meinhardiner died out? Historically when Leonhard of Gorizia died childless in 1500, a brief succession crisis was ignited between the Habsburgs and the Venetians (who used the fact that the Meinhardiner were former vassals of the Patriarch of Aquileia as justification to claim their lands), so would there be an event to represent this in-game?
 
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Mingmung

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Great thread as always @Mingmung , I'll be sure to read all of it as soon as I can, but for now I'd just like to focus on Gorizia and Cilli as I don't know enough about the others to comment all that much. ;)


What about if the Meinhardiner died out? Historically when Leonhard of Gorizia died childless in 1500, a brief succession crisis was ignited between the Habsburgs and the Venetians (who used the fact that the Meinhardiner were former vassals of the Patriarch of Aquileia as justification to claim their lands), so would there be an event to represent this in-game?
Yes, I guess I completely forgot about the way their extinction could be portrayed into the game. I will take a good look at it!

EDIT: They will get vassalised if Frederick III decides to attack them for Cilli (this happened historically), so the integration of them by Styria/Austria basically results in the same thing. ;)
 
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Another excellent thread @Mingmung ! Austria has always been my favourite nation to play (contrary to my name, which I would love to change), and I’ve always wondered why the Austrian region has never been split up properly as it was; this idea would finally change that.

Also, who else here has noticed the, as you say, ‘arbitrary’ event chain which puts Ladislas and some random Habsburg on the throne of Bohemia?

Whenever Ladislas does not die and stays heir of Austria and accedes to the throne of Hungary, there is a separate Ladislas generated for Hungary, which has always annoyed me, as it makes no sense whatsoever.

EDIT: This thread is also going into the featured section of my new update to the Pan-European Suggestion Thread.
 
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PrussicAcid

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Gorgeous! Unfortunately I don't think this is the path that devs will follow, possibly for gamebalance reasons as they already said speaking about Austria. But still, very engaging suggestion.
 
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Gorgeous! Unfortunately I don't think this is the path that devs will follow, possibly for gamebalance reasons as they already said speaking about Austria. But still, very engaging suggestion.
But, honestly, what balance though? While I don't have any simulators ready, the events are done in such a way that most of the time either Austria or Styria comes at the top. Seeing how Austria was only united in 1490, this makes quite some sense. The new provinces and the PU's along the way would also give Austria more oomph. Event-results could easily be tweaked to make sure the AI can handle it, etc.

It would just be great to see the developers make an effort like they did with the Wittelsbachs. It's just arbitrary to let Austria stay as it is, but split Bavaria, Saxony, Silesia, Pomerania and give France its vassals back.
 
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PrussicAcid

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Yes probably, and loyal minors would be perfect to solve the possible issues of that particular situation. Not that overpowered or tricky if you consider that few decades later they will be replaced by powerfuls Bohemia and Hungary.

As you, I personally don't think it would be so difficult to implement in the game. But I have big doubts they will after what they said, and considering the white colored borders in german and italian dev diaries. So sad.. :(
 

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But, honestly, what balance though? While I don't have any simulators ready, the events are done in such a way that most of the time either Austria or Styria comes at the top. Seeing how Austria was only united in 1490, this makes quite some sense. The new provinces and the PU's along the way would also give Austria more oomph. Event-results could easily be tweaked to make sure the AI can handle it, etc.

It would just be great to see the developers make an effort like they did with the Wittelsbachs. It's just arbitrary to let Austria stay as it is, but split Bavaria, Saxony, Silesia, Pomerania and give France its vassals back.

Yes probably, and loyal minors would be perfect to solve the possible issues of that particular situation. Not that overpowered or tricky if you consider that few decades later they will be replaced by powerfuls Bohemia and Hungary.

As you, I personally don't think it would be so difficult to implement in the game. But I have big doubts they will after what they said, and considering the white colored borders in german and italian dev diaries. So sad.. :(

I agree with both of you. This would not be terribly difficult to implement, the event scripting would be heavily weighted in Austria’s favour, and the additional provinces give Austria a boost as well.

It makes no sense to me why the dev’s wouldn’t want to bring this kind of accuracy to Austria and as they are to Bavaria, Saxony, etc. These major changes to the European map are to be done either done now or never, as there will probably never be another large-scale update to Europe again. Changes to these regions will not happen anytime soon either; we all saw that with the changes done to Iberia and the lack of willingness to go back and correct noted errors.


It really surprised me that the dev’s (rightly) decided to bring back the French minors from the dead, and with now Burgundy is finally getting a reality check, isn’t it time for Austria’s moment in the sun (if you will)?
 

Zhetone

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unfortunate that they still haven't implemented a split Austria, but I like your suggestions. It would look like a mess on the map, but the situation was a mess historically. The clean unified Austria of EU4 is a terrible misrepresentation of the historical reality
 

Donlad

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I really like the idea of Further Austria, i have not seen that brought up before regarding splitting Austria.

What would be their flag? And i feel like ‘Vorlande’ would flow better than ‘Further Austria’
 

Sanguine Caesar

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What would be their flag?
According to WappenWiki, the arms of the Landgraviate of Sundgau (a major part of the Vorlande) was as follows:

Haute_Alsace.svg

So perhaps this might be suitable? Otherwise, perhaps the black and gold bicolour of the Habsburgs could also work. :D
 

Mingmung

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I agree with renaming Further Austria to its German counterpart 'Vorlande', it just feels better not having Austria in its name.

Although I like the Sundgau-CoA, Breisgau with Freiburg was the seat. Seeing that there are no other really good flags out there, this might still be the best fitting one.
 
Last edited:

Mingmung

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Austria is very OP right now. This idea wasn't even a 'nerf', but the tag could use it.
 
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