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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Machiavellian

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Very interesting developments. I am really keen on finding out how things progress, especially with the 4th crusade.
 

CatKnight

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Judge: The Bulgars, Uzbeks and Qara-Khitai are doing well! The Mongols may win, but it promises to be one hell of a showdown.

Machiavellian: So am I! More below.

---------------------
As you may have noted, sometimes I've been predicting what will happen next, such as France's resurgence, because of performance in past games. Well, this game is now the furthest in I've played with the MES scenario. Further, as mfigueras noted, we're well off the timeline in places. What happens from now on will be as much a surprise to me as anyone. :)

The Fourth Crusade AI is bothering me. As you'll read, Venice and Rome are pretty much stalemated. However, the Venetian AI is probably not going to accept anything but a humiliating peace. Unless something breaks or the AI has some maximum date, then this fight could go on for decades.

Norway's still red-hot. I think they're trying to rebuild the viking kingdoms in Russia. France is consolidating almost too well; I wonder if the anti-English commise is too powerful. Hard to tell with only two games played to that point. Northern Great Britain is...a mess. I think the reconquista is going to end over two-hundred years early at this rate, and I don't think the Connacht AI knows what to do now that it owns Ireland.

We'll find out!
 

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Chapter 8: War without End

1 November 1217
Aboard the 'Normandie', off of Malta



This will probably be my last missive to you, my friends. For twenty-five years I served as historian for the kingdom and I dare say I have earned some rest. 'Normandie' is actually an attack ship carrying men for yet another raid on the Empire. I plan to make my way to Constantinople and see it at least once before the end. If there is an end, of course.

Yes, my friends. We are still at war. The Fourth Crusade, as the idealists will continue to call it, is now fourteen years old. It deserves its own section, so it shall get one. I will suffice to say it has not been the shining victory we foretold at the beginning. Sicilian men have died in Greece and Asia Minor, Sicilian ships are now at the bottom of the Mediterranean, and little else.

I look forward to retirement and the peace it promises. You may think Constantinople an odd place to find peace my friends, but I do assure you. It is in no danger.

Italy:
Venetian diplomacy has been interesting. While embroiled in a major war against the Roman Empire, they still found time to annoy their allies as they became involved in new foreign adventures. In 1207 Vladimir declared war on Novgorod, asking for help. Norway and Denmark answered, while Venice refused. Three days later they changed their mind . The war ended the next year with Novgorod's annexation.

Except for a marriage with Germany, attempting to entice them back into the crusade, and of course the ongoing war, Venice remained quiet until 1210 when Norway and Denmark declared war on Polotsk and Gdansk. Again Venice denied the alliance, and again two days later they changed their mind. So did Wielkopolska, who helped Polotsk. Ryazan joined on the Norwegian side in 1215, and that same year Polotsk finally surrendered control of rich Baltic lands to their control. What effect Venice played in these wars, if any, is unknown.

Elsewhere in Italy:
* 1207: Austria joins the Hungary, Sicily alliance. Sicily withdraws in 1215
* 1214: Genoa becomes an independent vassal and begins upgrading their fleet and city.
* 1216: Saxonia declares war on Este

ita1217.txt


Fourth Crusade:
The Fourth Crusade has always .. been there, a bit like a splinter one cannot remove. Sicilian warships have fought more or less successfully with the Romans, but every attempted assault ends in disaster. In the last ten years, our Venetian cobelligerents have lost Corfu and taken Crete.

Generals assure me it is a matter of a naval power with few men fighting a strong land power with a minimal navy. We and the Venetians control the waves, but the Empire has the manpower and resources to quickly move men to meet our charge. I think some people would be willing to discuss a truce, but pride is a terrible creature. The Empire and Sicily hate each other for past slights, and the Venetians feel the same. I do not know when, or if this war will end.

Elsewhere during the Crusade:
* 1212: Cyprus, having no fleet but more than enough men to repel an Imperial assault, signs a peace treaty with Rome.
* 1217: Crete, seized by Venice years early, openly revolts against their new masters.

4cr1217.txt


Western Europe
Just twenty years ago France and the Angevin line could be considered a backwater, an also-ran in Norman dominated Gaul. Now they stand triumphant. Having seized most of the Plantagenet holdings, France responded forcefully to a declaration of war by Blois-Champagne in 1207. Brittany, Orkney and Burgundy backed the rising star and by 1211 France had done a fine job of consolidating their territory. It must be said they owe much of their success to the unqualified failure of English King John. Having lost his continental territories, less Guyenne, England fought ineffectively to take it back. They signed seperate peaces with their enemies in mid 1213. Then on October 21st that same year, England enticed Flanders to join them and tried again. This second war completely destabilized England, forcing the throne to sign away several rights to their nobility, and made Flanders a vassal of France in 1216. On October 29, 1216 John was replaced by a child. So far he's doing better.

Elsewhere in Western Europe:
* 1207: Castile defeats the Almohads, earning 2,000 in indemnities.
* 1209: France, Toulouse and Aragon crush the Cathar heresy.
* 1210: Aragon, Leon and Castile agree to a division of the peninsula and order the Almohads out.
* 1210: Almohads vow to fight. A war with Leon breaks out.
* 1211: Friedrich II of Germany becomes the new Holy Roman Emperor
* 1212: German children launch their own crusade. The results are predictable.
* 1215: Leon defeats the Almohads, securing their hold on the west.
* 1216-7: Rival universities are founded at Paris and Oxford.

weu1217.txt


Eastern Europe
Polotsk and Wielkopolska. The one nation is falling into decline after a triumphant rise in the middle of the last century. The second is brand new, the result of the refusal of a duke to submit to Polish authority. Wielkopolska - New Poland if you wish - is on the rise.

In 1208 these two nations, along with Gdansk, declared war on Masovia, Sandomir and Gotland. Masovia itself fell to the Poles in 1210, but Bohemia joined the fray against them two years later. Sandomir wound up being partioned, with Wielkopolska taking half and vassalizing them in 1213, and Polotsk finishing them off two years later. That same year, as I noted earlier, Norway served Polotsk a stunning defeat. Indeed, Norway is turning into the dominant power of the east with lands from the Arctic to the Black Sea.

Elsewhere in Eastern Europe:
* 1212-3: Damascus and the Rum Seljuks fight. Like so many opponents before, Damascus falls.

eeu1217.txt


Asia and Africa:
Qara-Khitai and the Uzbeks find themselves on the front lines against the Mongols, a war that has raged for over ten years and shows no signs of ending, as Chingiz Khan seems almost desperate to break past them into the Near East and Europe.

Qara-Khitai holds its own though, especially given that the Mongols aren't their only enemies. In 1208 they finally ended an ongoing war with the Karakhanids, demanding the equivalent of 162,000 ducats in reparations. In 1210 the Mongols swore an end to the Qara-Khitai state ... which hasn't happened yet. That same year Khwarizm formed an alliance with the Karakhanids and Qara-Khitai to destroy the Ghurids, but not much came of this but promises.

Two years later Khwarizm annexed their Karakhanid allies outright, then in the name of Allah warred with Qara-Khitai. Fars tried to help, while the Uzbeks helped defend. In the end Allan and Khwarizm paid an indemnity to end the fighting.

Elsewhere in Asia and Africa:
* 1207: Khmer annexes Champa by force. They revolt in 1211 and fall again in 1213.
* 1208: Mongols defeat Xi Xia, vassalizing them and taking some choice lands.
* 1209: Pagan Kingdom annexes Bengal
* 1210: Abbasid Caliphate annexes the Hamadan Seljuks
 

CatKnight

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Chapter 9: An Honorable Peace

1st June, 1226
Palermo, Kingdom of the Two Sicilies


It is over. Blessed be to God, it is over. Church bells sound from here to Naples and back, joyous and hopeful. It is a new era for Sicily, one where we are not bound by the vicious lies of Venetian doges and endless war against immortal empires. Venice and her other lapdogs still fight. Let them. Let them burn.

Sicily and the Fourth Crusade:
We paid dearly for the Venetian Crusade. From 1218-1220 we landed innumerable expeditions in central Greece; at least ten. Each time the Romans drove us into the sea and forced to surrender. My lord, Friederich, found himself betrayed repeatedly by incompetent commanders and generals who couldn't defeat Rome when they were at war with several other countries. In 1222 Maltese rebels seized the land around Valetta, and despite our best efforts they are still there. The final indignity came in 1224, when Roman troops landed and sacked the countryside around Naples.

For a time things looked hopeful, especially when Serbia set up their own division of Orthodox Christianity and broke from Constantinople. It appears Rome agreed to settle accounts after the war though, for their alliance quickly rebuilt and never broke again. Cyprus reentered the war (1218), but with limited naval power could do little more than watch and bowed out again. (1225) Even the Rum Seljuks with Azerbaijan tried their hand in 1221, but could earn little more than an indemnity.

Time and again Venetians landed on their shores, only to be quickly beaten back. The Serbs have proved instrumental in Imperial victory, routing a major Venetian force in Macedonia and later beating back a Rum assault in Anatolia.

The Fourth Crusade lasted, for us, twenty-three years. It is now time to rebuild and give much deeper thought in our choice of friends. It is time to convince Valetta of the honor and courage of my master, and it is time to secure our destiny elsewhere.

Italy:
While brave men fought and died in Greece, Genoa found itself at war with Toulouse, Provence, the Papacy and Sardinia(!) in 1217. It was really no surprise when Genoa surrendered to Provence two years later. What may have been a surprise was the Pope's attack on Este one week later, in apparent revenge for Este's actions last century. Again the alliance joined in, and Este had to give up their claims to the Adriatic and cash in 1220.

Venice continued its own version of diplomacy, joining Vladimir, Gdansk, Wielkopolska, Ryazan and Norway vs Saxonia, Holland, Silesia and Sweden in 1219. Venice's help was probably minimal, and the war ended with indemnities paid to the alliance and Norway picking up more land from Sweden. They eventually tired of this, finally joining Germany, Cologne, Arelate, Mainz and Luxembourg vs Austria and Hungary in 1226.

Elsewhere:
* 1218: Este war with Saxonia ends with Saxonia paying a minor indemnity.

ita1226.txt


Western Europe:
Iberia may finally be nearing the end of the Islam menace, thanks be. After five hundred years under Muslim domination, The Moors' empire is falling about their ears. In 1217 they, along with their allies Tuareg and the Ayubbids, attacked Castile. The war ended with Castile seizing Murcia. Later the Ayyubids (and allies) attacked Cyrenacia, and they counterinvaded into northwestern Africa where they've fought the Almohads to a standstill! As civil unrest exploded, a relative of the former emir of Baleares declared his country free. To add insult to injury, Tuareg and the Ayyubids let the Moors know they were on their own, and Tuareg promptly joined an alliance with Ghana and Songhai!

The Orkneys, having beaten the odds and prospered against Scotland, finally lost decisively to them. Scotland forced them to yield Northumbria and become vassals, while England demanded a large indemnity (which they later paid to France) for peace.

Elsewhere:
* 1218: Norway (diplo)annexes Denmark
* 1223: German Emperor Friedrich II promises to return Jerusalem to the kingdom - forgetting that the Kingdom of Jerusalem doesn't exist!
* 1224: Burgundy becomes vassals of France
* 1225: Germany (and alliance) decides to return Austria to the fold - by force.

weu1226.txt


Eastern Europe:
The Cuman barbarians on the north end of the Black Sea kept exceptionally busy these last years. First they declared war on Georgia, which aside from disrupting the Roman alliance temporarily did little but hand them a stinging loss. Soon they were in wars with Bulgaria, the Bulgar Khannate, Ryazan, Norway, Gdansk, Wielkopolska and Vladimir. Surprisingly, they came out of all this relatively unscathed though wars with the two Bulgarias continue. They attacked and annexed the Alanes in 1225.

Wielkopolska - New Poland my mother called it - is pretty much done. In 1222 they ended up giving Galizien to Polotsk, and that seemed to break confidence in their nation. Massive revolts broke out, and within a few short years Masovia, Poland and Volhyna reappeared while in 1225 the government collapsed entirely. It's unknown whether they can recover, though doubtful.

Elsewhere:
* 1223: Galizien, Polotsk land for one year, is granted to Hungary as the result of a peace treaty.
* 1225: The Teutonic Order is founded as the failed Fifth Crusade ends. Norway grants them land.
* 1226: The Order declares war on Polotsk, Bulgaria and Masovia.

eeu1226.txt


Mongols:
When I took over for my mother in 1217, the Mongols were stymied by three major powers: The Uzbeks, Qara-Khitai and Khwarizm. The first two are destroyed, and the last is in serious trouble. The Mongol Horde is sweeping through the near east and they appear unstoppable. It's only a matter of time before they attack the Bulgar Khannate or Cumans. In the far east Annam lost territory and vassalized themselves to the Horde, and Tibet yielded sovereignty as well. The only reason Song China hasn't been hurt further is they seem to actively support the Khan in his conquests! With Khwarizm already at war with the Ghurids - an ill timed attempt to finish them off - that makes three hostile armies in their territory.

khw1226.txt


Other:
Mewar, Gujarat, Yadava, Malava and Hoysala in the Indian subcontinent have gone on their own rampage. In 1222 they attacked and destroyed the Kalachuris, and in 1223 the Gaharwars joined them. The alliance finally broke in 1224 over whether to attack Fars (which is surrounded by the Khwarizm), but with royal marriages abound they will probably stick together in the coming years.

Elsewhere:
* 1220 Khmer back out of Champa, granting them their independence.
* 1217-21 Ghurids suffer many minor defeats, convincing Khwarizm to try and destroy them.
 
Last edited:

CatKnight

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Victory Points:

Since part of what we're doing is examining the game, I thought it might be worth it to see how the VPs are coming out. The Mongols' painless victories thanks to events, and Germany's virtual lock on HRE tend to skew the results - so bear that in mind.

1226
1. Germany 1057
2. Mongols 971
3. Norway 473 (up from 7th; England fell to 6th)

1217
1. Germany 1002
2. Mongols 681
3. England 436

1207
1. Germany 891
2. Mongols 609
3. England 470

1197
1. Germany 707
2. Mongols 464 (up from 3rd)
3. England 441 (down from 2nd)

1187
1. Germany 454 (up from 2nd)
2. England 418 (down from 1st)
3. Mongols 417

1176
1. England 376
2. Germany 322
3. Mongols 320

1167
1. England 286 (up from 2nd)
2. Germany 273 (down from 1st)
3. Mongols 253 (up from 5th; Romans fell to 4th)

1159
1. Germany 222
2. England 165
3. Roman Empire 122

-----------------------------------------------------------------

General Comments:
I'm really unhappy with the events and AI for the Fourth Crusade now. 23 years, and still going strong because Venice's AI is set to ferocious. As it stands, the only way the AI reverts is if the Roman capital falls (to ANYONE) by 1250, which results in the Empire being partitioned. If the capital never falls, Venice never reverts and God knows how long the war lasts. Venice has a positive revolt risk now due to exhaustion - this event could destroy them as a playable power going forward in this game.

First, the AI reversion date needs to be pushed back. If a war lasts 47 years, then no one won <i>anything.</i> I will be quite annoyed on Rome's behalf if this partition happens because rebels took the capital. 20 years is a good number. I'd say reset the events so that IF the capital falls by 1223, the partition happens as designed. If it does not, then the Venetians give up and revert to their former AI. In my opinion the Fourth Crusade needs a major, major overhaul.

Another way of handing the crusade is to set it up similar to the White Lotus Rebellions in China. Give the Empire a ridiculous revolt risk and assume the 'rebels' are crusaders. If Thrace falls, partition the empire.

The Third Crusade and the Sixth Crusade are handled rather abstractly - by giving resources to the Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Fourth might be best handled this way as well.

Incidentally, since Jerusalem doesn't exist, the Sixth Crusade is pretty much a bust as was the Third. There are events to restore Jerusalem for precisely this purpose, but it assumes pretty much any Arab state owns Jerusalem BUT the Rum Seljuks. The only thing that can happen now, bar a miracle revolt, is that Cyprus gets vassalized by Germany.
 

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Changes:

I've decided to change how this AAR proceeds. Since it's a hands off, it's harder for me to feel a connection to it - and with so many great MES AARs out there now I believe interest is waning.

So I'm going to rush forward in fifty year spurts, noting only the major changes such as annexations, crushing victories, or events that seem to change how the game shapes up.

The only 'rule' I've maintained is that every ten years game time, I save and reload to let the AI reset.

After say...1250 the game really stabilizes. Even after the reload very few wars start. I could sometimes go for over a decade without seeing a change on the map worth mentioning. Barring major events, I think we're near final form at this point. The Mongols (and friends) still plink away now and then, but their spurt seems to have also slowed. Kiev and Baghdad haven't fallen as in history ... but they are on the front lines.

The Fourth Crusade..well, you know my opinion. It's seventy-two years old now. 'Nuf said. :)

Victory Points
From 1235-1275, the Mongols have held onto # 1, Germans at # 2, and Song China at # 3.

The Mongols and Germany are running away in the VP race, almost certainly due to the Mongols' ease of expansion and Germany's Holy Roman Emperor. As of 1275 the totals are: Mongols 1828, Germany 1548, China 818. For the curious, the other leades are France, the Mamelukes, Norway and Saxonia.

Enjoy!
 

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1226-1275

1227
Genghis Khan dies. Golden Horde, Chagatai Khannate break away from Mongols
Ayyubids annex Hedjaz
France annexes Blois-Champagne
Aragon annexes Emirate of Baleares

1275.01.txt


1229
Toulouse signs the treaty of Meaux-Paris (see 1271)
Silesia annexes Wielkopolska
Ayyubids diploannex Yemen

1230
Mongols burn Bukhara and Herat (taking much of Khwarizm territory by event.)
Castile annexes Leon by event, becomes Castilla y Leon
Mongols start seceding lands to the hordes to consolidate borders.

1275.02.txt


1231
Castilla y Leon completes the reconquista. Muslims are out of Iberia.

1232
Rum Seljuks diploannex Azerbaijan
Khwarizm defeated, becomes Mongol vassals

1275.03.txt


1234
Mongols and Song China soundly defeat Jin Empire, split three provinces
Ghana diploannexes Songhai
Mongols crush Tibet, taking three provinces

1275.04.txt


1235
Tunisia becomes independent from Almohads (event)
Tlemcen becomes independent from Almohads (event)
Flandres annexes Brabant

1236
Mongols annex Koryo by war event (seizing their capital, event triggers)
Ayyubids annex Alwa
Golden Horde annexes Bulgar Khannate by war event
Castilla y Leon defeats England, kicking them off the continent.
Almohads annex Tripolitania

1237
Golden Horde annexes Cumans by war event

1238
Golden Horde demands Ryazan's vassalization by event and gets it.
Papal States annex Este
Almohads become Morocco (name change)

1239
Wielkopolska revolts from Hungary
Flanders annexes Cologne

1275a.txt


1241
Trier becomes independent from Germany

1242
White Horde becomes independent from Golden Horde
Mongols, Golden Horde and Chagatai Khannate defeat Vladimir, splitting three provinces
Mongols diploannex Tibet
Novogorod-Severski revolts from Bulgaria
Emirate of Murcia revolts from Castilla y Leon

1275.06.txt


1243
Brittany annexes Orkney

1244
Castilla y Leon annexes Murcia despite vassalizing them by event in 1242.
Germany defeats Papal States, gaining a foothold in Italy.

1245
Ghana annexes Takrur

1275.07.txt


1246
France diploannexes Burgundy

1247
Morocco crushes, vassalizes Tlemcen

1249
Bulgar Khannate revolts from Golden Horde
County of Tripoli revolts from Rum Seljuks, ending their dominance.

1250
Karaman becomes independent of Rum Seljuks
Mamelukes take over Ayyubids by coup d'etat (name change)

1275.09.txt


1252
Saxonia diploannexes Silesia
France diploannexes Brittany
* Kingdom of Jerusalem revolts from Rum Seljuks
* Shirvan revolts from Rum Seljuks
* Alanes revolt from Rum Seljuks

* These did not trigger states of war nor vassalizations, and do not appear to have been caused by events. The government fell that day, so I assume they're rebellions...why no war then?

1275.08.txt


1275.10.txt


1253
Il-Khannate becomes independent of Chagatai Khannate
Song China annexes Jin Empire

1254
Song China annexes Xi Xia

1275.11.txt


1257
Hungary annexes Dalmatia
* Aleppo declare independence from and destroy Jerusalem

* Another oddball. Aleppo probably revolted, and received four provinces - Jerusalem's two, and two from the Rum Seljuks. Should the Rum have been affected by a Jerusalem rebellion?

1275.12.txt


1259
France restores Guyenne, giving the English a fragile foothold on the continent again.
Mongols and Golden Horde crush Ghurids, taking four provinces.
Mamelukes annex 'Ad

1261
Florence revolts from Saxonia
Fars annexes Ghurids
Hungary annexes Masovia

1275.13.txt


1262
Papal States annex Florence

1264
Mongols defeat and vassalize Aleppo
Hungary annexes Teutonic Order
Palas annexes Nepal

1275.14.txt


1266
Pskov becomes independent from Vladimir
Poland annexes Silesia
Mongols crush Abbasids, leaving them Baghdad.
White Horde annexes Bulgar Khannate
Germany tightens its hold on Italy by soundly defeating Papal States

1267
Sicilian event to attack Latin Empire tries to fire...but no Latin Empire.

1275.15.txt


1268
Song China defeats Khmer, Nan Chao defeats Song China, and Khmer vassalizes Nan Chao within eight days of each other.
(and 1269) Germany loses one province each to France and Poland, proving their vulnerability

1271
France annexes Toulouse by treaty event (see 1229)
Aragon gains a foothold in Italy by defeating Papal States

1273
Croatia revolts from Hungary

1274
Holland annexes Gelre
Hungary annexes Croatia

1275.16.txt
 
Last edited:

Stuyvesant

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Some odd occurences, none more so than the 75-year Fourth Crusade... I'm glad you are continuing this, even in its condensed form, because I really like seeing what is happening. The description of events (including some flaws) and the handy maps make this a very instructive read. :)
 

Judge

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Wow the Mongols are really bad in your game. The Rum Seljuks had a good start but it seems they are in rapid decline. In my games the Indians have always done well on the expense of the Ghurids but your Ghurids seem to be able to hold them down :)
 

Storey

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Yep it looks like the 4th Crusade needs tweeking. :) Have you stopped by and pointed out to the Mongolian Mods that this is a problem. Still interesting to see where this goes.

Joe
 

CatKnight

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Stuyvesant: Yes, there seem to be some bugs to be ironed out. I'm purposefully bringing these to light in case it proves useful to future versions. Overall I think the MES is a very strong mod.

Judge: I think the Mongols are done, other than the normal wars that every country gets into. They didn't get out of Russia, and only just now took Baghdad. China, India and Indochina are all intact. Ah well. :)

As for the Ghurids, they were strong for a long time ... but the Mongols and Hoysala finally took care of them.

Storey: I did mention it on their board here at Paradox. I went to Languish once or twice, but that board didn't seem to be checked often.


Comments:
First: Venice, Serbia, Rome and Mainz are still fighting. War exhaustion seems to max out at -5, which is good or these nations would have fallen a very long time ago.

Incidentally, in another game I'm playing, the Fourth Crusade lasted two or three years. Venice settled for one province from Zeta, and Sicily finished them off. End of crusade. Rome probably won't survive anyway, however: The Rum Seljuks kicked them out of Asia Minor entirely!

Second: I don't know if Germany's supposed to be holding on, since all the monarchs now have pretty asterisks after their name. They regularly lose wars now, but manage to get out of most of them with indemnities rather than losing land.

Third: The Mongols have several events to 'give' land to the Hordes. I assume the idea is to consolidate everything so the Hordes will be able to take care of themselves. This probably needs some more work - the hordes picked up a lot of rebellions and couldn't adequately deal with them, hence the mass shuffling of territories.

Fourth: I suppose it's hard-coded into the game and alliance system, but Europe is starting to feel like the mass alliances c. 1650-1750 or so, constantly shifting back and forth to maintain a status quo. It's not unusual to find Spanish or French troops in the east, or Hungarians and Poles in the west. It's an interesting dynamic.

Fifth: Lastly, the world is really stabilizing as far as borders go. New nations show up by rebellion, and they either survive or fall, but the major powers at most lose one province in peace deals. Diploannexation is becoming a very powerful option at this point in the game.

Technologies:
Some techs from around the world, c. 1325

France: Land 7/Navy 13
England 6/13
Germany 7/12
Venice 7/16
Rome 5/11

Morocco 4/12
Ghana 2/2
Kilwa 2/7
Mamelukes 8/12

Hoysala 5/12
Khmer 4/11
China 7/8
Japan 2/7

Norway 6/13
Vladimir 6/10
Mongols 6/12
Golden Horde 4/8

Victory Points:
The Mongols and Germany have a lock on 1-2. France passed Song China for third in 1295. Right now the Mamelukes are in 4th, China in 5th, Vladimir in 6th and England in 7th. Aragon and Saxonia were just thrown out of the top 7 in 1325.
 

CatKnight

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1276
Masovia revolts from Hungary
England takes Meath, establishing a foothold on Ireland
England diplovassalizes Scotland (see 1315)
Munster becomes independent of Saxonia
Mallorca becomes independent of Aragon
Germany continues to lose provinces or pay indemnities to France, Hungary, Aragon, Poland and Castile (through 1280+)

1277
Il-Khannate tries to destroy Rum Seljuks (DoWing by event). Nope.
Croatia revolts from Hungary
Jerusalem revolts from Mongols

1278
Volhyna annexes Masovia
Galich revolts from Hungary
Rum Seljuks annex Aleppo after they try to help the Il-Khannate
Bohemia's claimis on Austria 'weaken' thrice on 7, 15 and 21 Sep. Event fired three times.
Mainz annexes Austria on September 22.
Volhyna annexes Galich

1279
Volhyna annexes Croatia
Sicily annexes Papal States. Pope got offer he couldn't refuse.

1325a.txt


1280
Strassburg revolts from France
Golden Horde destabilizing - several provinces defect to Ustyaks. The Chagatai Khannae, Il-Khannate and White Horde will occasionally pick up provinces from each other due to runaway rebellions.
France annexes Strassburg

1281
Il-Khannate converts to Sunni by event. (Watch this, it gets weird fast.)

1282
Ottomans become independent from Rum Seljuks by event.
Naples becomes independent from Sicily by event.
Volhyna defeats Norway in a war, taking a province!

1325b.txt


1283
Armenia Minor revolts from Rum Seljuks

1325c.txt


1284
Il-Khannate converts to Mahayana Buddhism by event, then persecutes the Muslims.
England uses money to expand influence in Sterling's diplomacy. (Also fired in 1292, 1307,)

1286
Koryo revolts from Mongols

1287
Mamelukes decide to throw out the Crusaders (by event) and attack Tripoli.

1288
Mamelukes annex Tripoli
Hungary diploannexes Volhyna!
Croatia revolts from Hungary (again).
Chagatai Khannate sacks Baghdad, annexes Abbasid Caliphate

1289
Mamelukes decide to throw out Jerusalem (by event) and attack.

1290
Arelate annexes Bohemia
Hungary annexes Croatia
Mon Kingdom becomes independent of Pagan Kingdom
Bangalah becomes independent of Pagan Kingdom

1291
Mamelukes annex Jerusalem
Helvetia becomes independent of Germany by event
Genoa becomes independent of Provence

1325d.txt


1292
Alwa revolts from Mamelukes
Croatia revolts from Hungary (again)

1293
Vladimir diploannexes Pskov

1294
Provence annexes Helvetia.

1295
Il-Khannate converts to Sunni by event, persecutes Buddhists.

1325e.txt


1296
Il-Khannate (finally) annexes Khwarizm.

1297
Ethiopia forcevassalizes Adal, bringing them to one province.
Samudra Pasir become independent of Srivijaya by event.

1325f.txt


1325g.txt


1325h.txt


1301
Baluchi revolts from Mongols

1302
Mongols annex Baluchi
Aragon annexes Mallorca

1304
White Horde partially avenges the GH on the Ustyaks, taking two provinces.
Il-Khannate decides to try being Shi'ite (by event).

1305
Sicily annexes Pisa

1306
Roman Empire refuses to give Rhodes to the Knights. Given this history, who can blame them?

1308
My little Indonesian guys have cannon! (Navy 9) Yay!
Kanuri Empire force-vassalizes Kano, strips them to one province.
England force-vassalizes Holland, strips them to one province. (See 1318)

1325i.txt


1311
Saxonia annexes Munster

1314
Magdeburg revolts from Mainz

1315
England diploannexes Scotland.
Germany annexes Magdeburg
Ghana annexes Mali
'Ad revolt from Mamelukes

1325j.txt


1316
Il-Khannate becomes Sunni by event.

1318
England diploannexes Holland

1319
Srivijaya diploannexes Samudra Pasir
Hoysala diploannexes Gujarat

1320
Il-Khannate vows to fight the Golden Horde for the Caucasus. Which might be interesting if either were in the Caucasus :)

1322
Roman Empire gives Corfu to Arelate, ending part of the Fourth Crusade. Georgia had earlier given some land to Venice. It is now Rome + Serbia vs Venice + Mainz. They have warred for 119 years.

1323
Poland annexes Gdansk
Germany diploannexes Arelate

1325k.txt


1325l.txt
 

Stuyvesant

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Interesting... Any idea what all those religion changes by the Il Khanate are supposed to model? Since they are events, I would assume that there is some historical explanation for it.

Thanks for updating, I continue to find this very informative. Who knows, I might take the plunge myself soon... :)
 

Machiavellian

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Is it possible that England is trying to make a come back by the 15th century? What happened to the once rising star of Norway? It seems like they sort of gave up on their expansion. Hungary and Castile y Leon seem to have grown quite powerful in the last 100 years.
 

CatKnight

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Judge: Yes and no...the White Horde really isn't that strong. In fact, all the hordes have pretty much stagnated. I don't know if/when Tamerlane and the Timurids show up, but they just aren't going to have much to work with.

Stuyvesant: My best guess from the event file is that the Il-Khannate at that time went through a series of rulers experimenting with different religions. It may be overplayed though, the I-K isn't doing well in this game and that inherent instability couldn't have helped.

Machiavellian: England's..stable. They gained a little ground, but this constant warfare with France due to events is hurting them badly. I hope the HYW engine leaves them alone for a bit. Norway has settled down somewhat - they still actively get into melees, but they tend to end up either draws or one province changes hands. The new rising star is Vladimir in the east.

I've noted this in Vanilla as well: Towards the end of the game you end up with several strong powers rather then a pack of weak ones. Europe now is dominated by England (kinda), France, Hungary, Germany (kinda) and Vladimir. West Africa is Ghana, while India is Hoysala. East Asia is down to the Mongols and Song China.

Victory Points:
Back in 1325 it looked like this:

1. Mongols, 2. Germany, 3: France, 4: Mamelukes, 5: Song China, 6: Vladimir, 7: England.

The top three spots are stable. China and the Mamelukes had been fighting for 4-5 since 1295, until the Mamelukes were kicked out of the top 7 in 1375. England dropped out of the race in Ghana's favor in 1345, while Vladimir 'fell' to the Hoysala Kingdom ten years later. As of January 1375:

1. Mongols 2,753
2. Germany 2,270
3. France 1,383
4. Song China 1,037
5. Hoysala Kingdom 987
6. Ghana 985
7. Venice 910 (Not sure why, Venice has done nothing... oh well)

General Comments:
I posted my thoughts on the Hundred Years War on the Mongol board. Basically, it didn't fire for England on time and I think the events need to be reworked. Now that it's on though, it may be too rough...one month between wars? Two years? Not really enough, not with the stability hit for breaking a truce.

On the other hand, with the bugs and questions I have, I have to really compliment the MES team on the Black Plague. It triggers in individual provinces, and spreads like a..well..scythe across Europe, sometimes only a few days passing between strikes. Even with this hands off game it was rather intimidating watching "Black Plague" flash on my screen every second or two. I can definitely understand why people at the time wondered if the world was coming to an end.

Oh..and yes - the Fourth Crusade is now 171 years old. Venice and Mainz vs Rome, Serbia, Vladimir and Novgorod-Severski.
 
Last edited:

CatKnight

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1325
Jin Empire revolts from Mongols
Ife forcevassalizes Benin

1326
Shan revolts from Pagan Kingdom
Burgundy revolts from France
Toulouse revolts from France
Chagatai Khannate converts to Sunni
Brittany revolts from France

1375a.txt


1327
Edward III becomes English king, causing crisis over French monarchy.
Vladimir diploannexes Bulgaria.
France annexes Burgundy.
Pagan Kingdom annexes Shan.

1328
Black Plague strikes far eastern Mongol territory, then Jin Empire and Song China.

1329
Black Plague continues to ravage Song China.
France forcevassalizes Toulouse.
France annexes Brittany.

1330
More Black Plague in China.

1331
Black Plague enters Mongol (western Chinese) lands then apparently dies out.
English expand their holdings in southwestern France (formerly Aquitaine) by defeating Aragon.

1332
French swear to throw England off the continent. (They gain a 125 year casus belli from the Hundred Years War triggering. It did NOT trigger for England at this time.)

1333
Iaroslav revolts from Vladimir.

1375b.txt


1334
Vladimir annexes Iaroslav.
Hoysala Kingdom wins major victory over Palas (2 provinces.)
Vladimir diploannexes Polotsk.

1335
Hoysala Kingdom annexes Bangalah.

1336
Palas diploannexes Assam.
Kanuri Empire annexes Kano.
Champa forcevassalizes Annam.
France diplovassalizes Trier.
Baluchi revolts from Mongols.
Hoysala Kingdom forcevassalizes Chola.

1338
Black Plague strikes Bogda Shan in Chagatai Khannate territory, then vanishes again.
Golden Horde crushes (4 provinces) and forcevassalizes Ustyaks.

1339
Black Plague strikes Dsungaria in Chagatai territory.

1375c.txt


1340
Kalachuris revolt from Hoysala Kingdom.
Bangalah revolts from Hoysala Kingdom.
Shirvan takes Tripolitania from Morocco, establishing foothold on Mediterranean.
Vladimir annexes Ryazan.

1341
Malava annexes Kalachuris.

1343
Internal revolts in Central Asia cause the hordes to shuffle territory again.

1344
France cancels vassalization with Toulouse and attacks, annexing them that year.
Germany diploannexes Poland.

1345
Polotsk revolts from Vladimir.

1346
Sri Lanka annexes Chola.
France diploannexes Trier.
Black Plague starts at Kaffa in Georgia, advances along the Black Sea. (Venice, Alanes)

1347
The Plague spreads to major ports in the Mediterranean, including Genoa, Venice, Constantinople, Lisbon. (Golden Horde, Alanes, Vladimir, Venice, Georgia, Genoa, Roman Empire, Germany, Provence, Rum Seljuks, Castila y Leon, Sicily, Naples, Sardinia)
Ghana diploannexes Kanuri Empire.
Hoysala diploannexes Mewar.

1348
Black Plague spreads through Alexandria, Athens, Tunis, Naples, Rome, Barcelona, Aleppo, Madrid, Paris. Bern. (Mamelukes, Roman Empire, Sicily, Tunisia, Naples, Germany, Morocco, France, Aragon, Shirvan, Cyprus, Provence, Mantua, Rum Seljuks, Karaman, Venice, Hungary, Ottoman Empire, Mongols, Castila y Leon, Morocco, Tlemcen, England, Vladimir, Chagatai Khannate.)
Yemen revolts from Mamelukes.

1349
Black Plague strikes England and Ireland, Cologne, (Connacht, England, France, Norway, Mamelukes, Oman, Saxonia, Germany, Hungary, Aragon, Morocco, Bavaria, Castila y Leon, Hungary.)
Muslim world devastated as Mecca falls to Black Plague.
Vladimir annexes Polotsk.
Bulgaria revolts from Vladimir.

1350
Black Plague strikes eastward including Magdeburg, Mecklenburg, Bergen, Krakow (Connacht, France, Norway, Germany, Hungary, Saxony, Sweden, Gotland, Castila y Leon.)

1375d.txt


1351
Black Plague peters out in east, after hitting what's now Russia including Moscow, St Petersburg, Smolensk. (Hungary, Vladimir, Norway, Mongols, Novgorod-Severski, Golden Horde.)
Karts revolts from Il-Khannate.

1352
Miracle in Medina rallies Muslims.
Mongols annex Koryo.
Leon revolts from Castila y Leon.

1353
Castila y Leon annexes Leon.

1354
Hoysala Kingdom wins major (2 province) victory over Sri Lanka, throwing them off of continent.

1355
Norway and Castilla y Leon defeat Vladimir, taking one province each.

1356
Poland revolts from Saxonia.

1357
Vladimir annexes Bulgaria.
Aragon diplovassalizes Naples.

1358
Bulgaria revolts from Vladimir (again.)

1375e.txt


1362
Chagatai Khannate wins major (2 province) victory over Fars.
Hoysala Kingdom wins major (2 province) victory over Palas.

1363
Yadava diplovassalizes Kakatiyas.
Fars diplovassalizes Baluchi.
France declares the past thirty years of non-fighting was 'only a truce' and attacks England, triggering the Hundred Years War for England.

1375f.txt


1366
French/English war ends with minor French victory (indemnities.) 1 month later (by event), England declares war on France.

1367
Aragon diploannexes Naples.

1368
Second French/English war ends, England pays indemnities.

1370
England declares war on France again (by event), two years after last war ended.

1372
Vladimir wins crushing (3 province) victory over Golden Horde, securing the lands west of the Urals for Russians.

1373
Malava annexes Bangalah.

1374
France wins crushing (3 province) victory over England, including Ireland and parts of the continent.

1375g.txt
 

Machiavellian

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What over all effect would you say the black plague had on europe and the near east in game terms?
 

CatKnight

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Machiavellian said:
What over all effect would you say the black plague had on europe and the near east in game terms?

The plague events are tied to specific provinces and timed to go off on specific dates. It appears a lot of research went into this, as some provinces are barely damaged, while others are obliterated. On the other hand, it appears they have missed a few...I don't think London and parts of East Central Europe get hit at all, and I'm pretty sure London got hit hard.

In game terms, the event reduces population between 900 and 100,000, manpower and tax base by 0-2, and causes desertions usually equal to 10% of the population lost.

As for how it changed the game....I think everything came to a screeching halt while the plague events hit. After...it's hard to say. Warfare seemed to slow down - except for the event driven wars - but it's hard to be sure if the plague was a factor as wars usually do settle down towards the end-game.


------------------------------------------------------------
And so our 'tale' comes to an end. I hope you enjoyed!

Final Point Totals:
Mongols 3780
Germany 2632
France 1620
Ghana 1209
Hoysala 1126
Venice 1075
Aragon 1054
 

CatKnight

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1375
France again declares war on England (by event) as the Hundred Years War rages on.
Hedjaz revolts from Mamelukes.

1376
Germany defeats Sicily, taking three provinces and securing their hold on the Italian peninsula.
Germany diploannexes Croatia.

1377
Mongols crush Song China, taking eight provinces and pushing them far eastward.

1378
Mongols follow up their victory by humiliating Khmer, taking five provinces.

1380
French/English war ends with England paying a large indemnity.
Song China (foolishly) tries to defend Jin Empire from Mongol attacks.

1382
Mongols force-annex Jin Empire. War with China continues.

1385
Tunisia force-annexes Sicily, securing a Muslim foothold on Europe.
Mongols take another six provinces from Song China.

1387
Mamelukes force-vassalize Hedjaz.

1390
Mogadishu wins two provinces from Kilwa in East Africa.

1396
Mongols and China are again fighting. Champa joins in and wins a province from the Song.

1401
Islam starts spreading into Indonesia (formerly Buddhist) by event.
France defeats England in another war, taking three provinces. England is now out of France entirely.

1403
Mongols take five provinces from Song China.

1409
Another war, and now Song China is force-vassalized by the Mongols.

1410
Vladimir wins a furious war with Hungary, taking four provinces.
Bulgaria joins Rome, Serbia, Vladimir and Novgorod-Severski in fighting off the Fourth Crusade!!

1412
Hoysala Kingdom diplovassalizes Malava.
Vladimir signs seperate peaces with Poland and Provence, giving up border territories.

1413
Six days after joining the defenders of the Fourth Crusade, Alanes force-annexed by Golden Horde.

1414
Song China (stupidly) cancels vassalization with Mongols. Mongols and Champa declare war.

1415
Mongols force-annex Song China.
France demolishes Norway, ending any dreams of their supremacy by taking six provinces in modern day Finland and Denmark.

1416
Morocco diplo-vassalizes Tuareg.

1418
Morocco and Turaeg declare war on Tlemcen six months before the end of the game to prove they can. :)


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