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Cormac91

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I'm pretty interested in the variety of cultures that found themselves on the British Isles. A lot of them are represented in the game via vanilla, and much more via HIP (specifically SWMH). Though, not all of them are represented, and there are some particular cultures that had some important historical effects during their time. I want to use this opportunity to build a discussion and maybe propose some ideas for HIP or my own HSL.

At the moment there are three significant cultures on my mind:

  • Hiberno-Norman
  • Scoto-Norman
  • Scottish Gaelic*

*the culture, rather than the language (though, the language is part of the culture and should be applied to the names)


Hiberno-Norman would be a melting pot between the Irish and the Normans (and possibly the English). This might be an interesting culture for different start dates, giving some ideas for different succession laws and Anglicised Irish names and Irish-Norman names.

I feel that 867 Scotland is misrepresented by the current implemented culture. I might be wrong about how Gaelic they were at the time, but there was certainly a lot more Gaelic influence during that period. What is mostly misrepresented is the names. The names are too Anglicised for that time period. This brings the idea of Scottish Gaelic culture. A later period would consist with the Scoto-Norman culture, more akin to how it's currently represented. Scoto-Norman culture would be a melting pot between the Scottish Gaelic and Norman cultures.

Anyway, I'm curious about making these implementations into my own mod, but I'd first like to discuss it a bit, should people find this interesting. I'd like to hear your arguments about what cultures need representing, what cultures don't need representing and what cultures need better representing, to maximise the CK2 experience.

So, any ideas about cultures, laws, names, title localisations, etc.?
 
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superskierpat

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I think hiberno-norman could be an idea, especially if it changes the names, though from what I remember, they became quite assimilated, like more irish than the irish themselves.

I think early scottish should be gaelic like Ireland and then slowly have the south becoming Scott.

Oh and if we're talking about more cultures in britain, what about the Manx culture in the isle of Mann?
 

Cormac91

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Yeah, the Manx were Gaelic like the Irish and Scottish. Currently, at the 867 start date, the culture on Mann is Norse Gaelic. At what point in the game should Manx Gaelic exist? The other thing about Manx Gaelic is that using the current Manx language to create names with would do the game a historical injustice. The current language is a modern revived form of the original language, and bears little similarity to the original orthography. In fact, during the 867 start date, the Irish, Scottish and Manx cultures were all more or less the one Gaelic culture. The shared the exact same language, maybe with some dialectal differences. That langauge is today known as Old Irish. It has some significant orthographical differences with Modern Irish. To best historically represent all three cultures would be to give them all names and localisations in the form of Old Irish.

Which brings me to the question: how do melting pots work exactly? Could you have a situation where the one Gaelic culture split into three (obviously not a melting pot, but a diversion of cultures)?
 
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superskierpat

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Yeah, the Manx were Gaelic like the Irish and Scottish. Currently, at the 867 start date, the culture on Mann is Norse Gaelic. At what point in the game should Manx Gaelic exist? The other thing about Manx Gaelic is that using the current Manx language to create names with would do the game a historical injustice. The current language is a modern revived form of the original language, and bears little similarity to the original orthography. In fact, during the 867 start date, the Irish, Scottish and Manx cultures were all more or less the one Gaelic culture. The shared the exact same language, maybe with some dialectal differences. That langauge is today known as Old Irish. It has some significant differences orthographical differences with Modern Irish. To best historically represent all three cultures would be to give them all names and localisations in the form of Old Irish.

Which brings me to the question: how do melting pots work exactly? Could you have a situation where the one Gaelic culture split into three (obviously not a melting pot, but a diversion of cultures)?
Just look at the events for norse to danish/swedish/norwegian.

And actually, Manx is pretty well served by norse-gael, since thats pretty much what they are, except maybe more gaelic than norse. Though insularity can change somethings from mainland cultures.
 

Cormac91

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Just look at the events for norse to danish/swedish/norwegian.
Oh yeah.

And actually, Manx is pretty well served by norse-gael, since thats pretty much what they are, except maybe more gaelic than norse. Though insularity can change somethings from mainland cultures.
You mean like going from Norse-Gael to Manx Gaelic via the Norse --> Danish/Swedish/Norwegian system.
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Manx Gaelic is Norse-Gaelic. They were rather close to the Irish before hand.

I agree, though. I'd love to see the Gaels fleshed out more.
 

Cormac91

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I've done out a table to represent proposed melting pots and cultural diversions. If you can think of anymore I'll add them to the list.

ParentParentChildGroup
GoidelIrish GoidelCeltic
GoidelScotish GoidelCeltic
GoidelNorseNorse-GaelCeltic
Irish GoidelNorseNorse-GaelCeltic
Scottish GoidelNorseNorse-GaelCeltic
Irish GoidelNorman (and Norman sub-groups)/EnglishHiberno-NormanCeltic?
Scottish GoidelNorman (and Norman sub-groups)/EnglishScoto-NormanWest-German? Celtic?
WelshNorman (and Norman sub-groups)/EnglishCambro-NormanWest-German? Celtic?
Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-NorseNorman (and Norman sub-groups)Anglo-NormanWest-German? Latin (or whatever group Normans belongs to)?
Anglo-SaxonNorseAnglo-Norse [1 2]West-German? North-German?
Anglo-NormanEnglishWest-German
 
Last edited:

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There is an Anglo-Norse culture in the files for the mod but for some reason no events that activate the melting pot; I've always wondered why. It would be a decent addition.
 

Palfouri

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Interesting. I wonder if there are any Anglo-Norse names?
It looks feature-complete (names, entry in the culture file, variants for placenames in landed_titles, a localization), so I have no idea why it isn't being used.
 

EmperorTojo

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Scotland should be gaelic and have gaelic names, titles and the sort untill some melting pot event later on (more or less at the same time the English have it) that turns the lowlands into Scots and in the west germanic group. I'm convinced one of the mods did this already, but with SWMH it seems to be Scots from the start.

Speaking of this, the king of the isles should probably be Norse Gael.
 

antidualist

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Hi just to say I was bored this afternoon and decided to make an anglo norse melting pot event using the original English melting pot. Didn't have time to see if it worked but should be able to find out tomorrow night. If it works you're welcome to use it. Since it seems like everything for anglo norse is in the files apart from the melting pot I think it will.
 

antidualist

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I think the list is good, but I'd make the Scottish and Irish Godail mixes with Norman also mix with English. Maybe we want two more melting pots, one for celtic rulers of England that creates a celtic culture of Sasanach (maybe for northern England it could be Cumbric) and another for Saxon rulers in Ireland and Scotland that gives rise to the West_german culture of Scottas but that might be taking things too far, if it weren't for the name list I'd say to put the Saxon, Norman and English melting pots as one.
 

Cormac91

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I think the list is good, but I'd make the Scottish and Irish Godail mixes with Norman also mix with English. Maybe we want two more melting pots, one for celtic rulers of England that creates a celtic culture of Sasanach (maybe for northern England it could be Cumbric) and another for Saxon rulers in Ireland and Scotland that gives rise to the West_german culture of Scottas but that might be taking things too far, if it weren't for the name list I'd say to put the Saxon, Norman and English melting pots as one.
A lot of that might be pushing it. The point is: the suggestions in the list have pretty good historical backing and were widespread enough to have social and political impacts on large enough regions. I might go with this: Hibero-Norman = [Irish Goidel + Norman] OR [Irish Goidel + English], Scoto-Norman = [Scottish Goidel + Norman] OR [Scottish Goidel + English]. English culture was very much Norman culture up until after the ending date in the game; the English aristocracy were still speaking a dialect of French until about 500 years ago.

I have to say that Scoto-Norman would not = [Scottish Goidel + Anglo-Saxon]. There might have been some sort of Scottish-Saxon cultural product historically, but I'm not sure if they are worth adding, or if we can get any names or localisations for them. Anything else you've mentioned seems a bit fantastical to be honest. It would be impossible to represent them effectively without any historical background behind them, and that's what my mod Historical Succession Laws is about: to bring historical cultures and laws into the game.

They were nice suggestions and I thank you for them and taking the interest, but if you can think of any historical examples then by all means suggest away. If you have a hard time convincing me about some of your suggestions then maybe you could provide some resources that would provide a good argument for their implementation.
 
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