A Different World

[Magdaleno]

Damn I would really love to help but i'm very lame in modding : ( I have some historical knowledge but i know that you more like to have some modder in your team. anyway I wish you good luck and you must know that i will gladly help in something you if you want : )

 

[EmperorWillham]

Damn I would really love to help but i'm very lame in modding : ( I have some historical knowledge but i know that you more like to have some modder in your team. anyway I wish you good luck and you must know that i will gladly help in something you if you want : )

I'll take the historical knowledge.

 

[Magdaleno]

I'll take the historical knowledge.

If you need help in creating Polish, Ukrainian, Baltic, Russian (and little German) government/history you can rely on me! Of course if you first tell me how you see those countires in your mod.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Here's the borders I have set up so far.

These were set up during the more favorable peace conference between the Russian Republic and the central powers during world war one.
I'm thinking that the Germans wanted a free Poland and the Baltic states as a buffer nations.

I think the Russians probably would have agreed to an independent Poland.

But don't know how the Russians would feel about letting all the Baltic states go.

Belarus stays in the Republic.

Ukraine could be a autonomous region similar to Crimea.

I believe Poland is more aligned with the Allied camp, due to concerns about Germany and Russia.

I still don't know what to do with the caucuses though.

 

[Magdaleno]

View attachment 107292
Here's the borders I have set up so far.

These were set up during the more favorable peace conference between the Russian Republic and the central powers during world war one.
I'm thinking that the Germans wanted a free Poland and the Baltic states as a buffer nations.

I think the Russians probably would have agreed to an independent Poland.

But don't know how the Russians would feel about letting all the Baltic states go.

Belarus stays in the Republic.

Ukraine could be a autonomous region similar to Crimea.

I believe Poland is more aligned with the Allied camp, due to concerns about Germany and Russia.

I still don't know what to do with the caucuses though.

I think about Baltic where's Lithuania is pro-germanic and Latvia and Estonia are under Russian influence.

Ukraine could be called a Ukrainian People's Republic just like in real history.

I see Poland as country in autocratic rules of General Rydz-Śmigły, a close associate of Józef Piłsudzki. He would want to cooperate with Germans to oppose russians (Just like Piłsudzki want by the way). But of course you can make event which would give possibility to player, with who he want to have alliance.

I think that the best caucasus would be the our's reality one, with the exception of Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountainous_Republic_of_the_Northern_Caucasus) Which could be under Russian Protectorate.

 

[EmperorWillham]

I think about Baltic where's Lithuania is pro-germanic and Latvia and Estonia are under Russian influence.

Ukraine could be called a Ukrainian People's Republic just like in real history.

I see Poland as country in autocratic rules of General Rydz-Śmigły, a close associate of Józef Piłsudzki. He would want to cooperate with Germans to oppose russians (Just like Piłsudzki want by the way). But of course you can make event which would give possibility to player, with who he want to have alliance.

I think that the best caucasus would be the our's reality one, with the exception of Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountainous_Republic_of_the_Northern_Caucasus) Which could be under Russian Protectorate.

Well I know the League of Nations would have supported independence for the nation of the caucuses.

However without the mass chaos that followed Bolshevik takeover and the Russian civil war, would these groups have had the opportunity to
Secede like they did in our world?

So we talking about an independent Western Ukraine, or the entire region?

A German partnership with Poland might be problematic by the end of the thirties.

However having Poland under the autocratic rule seems plausible.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

... Eww, what is with that ugly Croat-Hungarian border? You do realize that area is effectively 90%+ Hungarian and that it seems far fetched that the Hunagrians would ever give it up (or that Croatia would want to take it in the first place). Hungary might have lost 2/3rds of its territory post-WWI but that was only possible since they were minorities in those areas (or not connected with the rest of them, such as Eastern Transylvaia). Istria or parts of Bosnia makes far more sense as additional territory for them.

Also, why does Russia have Eastern Galicia-Lodomeria? Kerensky might have waved a magic wand a few times, but I'm pretty sure he was the loser in that war. It would make more sense to have it independent as Ruthenia, or perhaps annexed to Poland. I also have questions about Suwalki and Alytus going to Poland, since they didn't have a significant Polish population in '19. A good reference to the population distribution can be seen here:

Finally, I'm disappointed to see yet another Czechoslovakia and a Polish corridor for this mod, considering how overused they are. Remember that Czechoslovakia had no historical ties and was only done so by the will off the Entente, and that the Polish corridor had a significant German minority, of up to ~40%.

Poland in general is a very interesting country to work with in the post-WWI era because despite being overshadowed by the events of WWII, it wasn't the poor victim that it's often made out to be, with its treatment of Germans in its territory in the 20s, and its actions against Russia during the RCW, etc. etc. It's an interesting that could reliably stick to any faction, except perhaps with Nazi Germany due to the latter's revanchism. Certainly, I'd have a lot of doubts on Polish-Entente relations post-war, because I would assume they would have done similar things, and get into all sorts of conflict with Russia, etc, while there is no Communist menace that needs to be fended off either.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Yeah the whole lanyaen-Hungarian border does look a bit weird.
I was thinking that the lanyaens could've taken it sometime during the 1500s or something.
My reasoning was to give lanya enough European Territory to become a real player in Europe.
However, small enough to warrant their quest for a "global empire" to compensate.
Being stuck between the Austrian empire and the emerging Italy, expansion tends to be a bit tricky.


So you think that Eastern Galicia-Lodomeria should've went to Poland, or become an independent nation?
My reasoning was that the Russians would not accept such a harsh deal if they were winning.

As for Germany giving up the East Prussian Territories to Poland,
I was kind of following the OTL sort of reasoning that the entente had in mind of trying to weaken Germany.
I guess there should be changes to account for the differences in this timeline.

Czechoslovakia and a Polish corridor?

So where do you think Poland should stand?

Do you mind you if you could draw me a map of what you think the borders should look like?
Just so I can get an idea.

As for everything else, I'm still learning about European history, and world history for that matter.
So I'm always open to enlightenment.

My goal is to change some things to make it interesting, however make things as plausible as I can
to make it fun for history lovers.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

I think the biggest thing that you could do is to set up a timeline that summarizes the events. I've been taking bits and pieces of this timeline's history, but it's been difficult, and I think it'd be great for future discussion if you could put one somewhere, like the OP, for example.

As for the Hungarian borders, there are disputes on historical Hungarian demographics, but the general consensus is that the current OTL Hungary's borders were always primarily Hungarian since the Magyars moved in there. As to whether the Ianyaens could have taken it during the 1500s would depend on how Ottoman expansion in Europe went.

Anyway, it just seems weird that Russia would have taken Eastern Galicia-Lodomeria and yet have Poland and the Baltics independent. Of course, A-H might not exist, or be somehow different in this timeline, but at least based on OTL, it would seem much more likely that Russia would have tried to secure its existing territory (especially the Baltics due to its proximity to St. Petersberg), and I doubt that the Germans would have so willlingly let the Russians take a bite of A-H. If you really want to keep the current borders, perhaps you could make it so that there was some sort of conflict post-war between Poland and the Ukranian population there and Russia intervened afterwards?

As for Polish borders, I suppose there is always room to make considering this timeline seems to be significantly divergent from that of OTL, but I'm really curious as to whether the Entente would have had the capability or the will to force the Germans to give up the corridor. From what I read earlier, it would seem that France suffered some sort of socialist revolt during the war, or perhaps after it, I'm not sure, but it appears that they had a lot of internal issues (the French were barely inches away of running out of supplies and going into starvation before US aid arrived OTL, so I'm assuming that if it was worse than that, it was really bad).

A more likely proposition, if you want to keep the corridor, would be that Poland fought against Germany to take those lands by force, and that the weakened post-war Germany couldn't stop it, although I have to wonder just how much Poland could have messed around with the Russians at their backs.

As to whether the terms were too harsh to Russia... that's for you to decide, I suppose. I'm not exactly sure what the hell went on over there, so no comment from me at this point.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Yeah, sorry for making everything confusing.
I tried to create a timeline a little while before, but I could not make up my mind on what events to write down.

As for this world's world war one.

The Entente were made up of France, Russia, and Great Britain. As the big three Just like in our world.
With Japan, Belgium, Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Greece. Brazil and the central American states
would join the entente upon U.S. entry into the war in late 1917.


The central powers are bit different you have Austria-hungry, Germany, and Lanya, to start out with.
Then the ottomans come in, and the Bulgarians.

I don't know what to do with Italy, China, and Australia.

The war played out fairly similar to it did in the OTL,
However with lanya's global empire (which was well developed.) The colonial theatre got a lot more action in this timeline.

The French and British Mediterranean fleets became preoccupied with battling the Lanyaen Imperial Navy.

Belgium was invaded like in our world

The Germans with the aid of the Lanyaen army, gave the French and British forces a hard time on the western front.

The Russian people suffered great hardship just like in our world, to the point in which the czar was overthrown
and the Republic was formed.

The British and the French attempted a push into German and Lanyaen lines, however this ended up being a complete disaster,
and French forces a bore heavy blow, leading to a German-Lanyaen advance into Allied Lines.
This situation made matters worse on France and helped to spark the flames of discontent.

At the same time, while the Germans and Lanyaens were preoccupied on the western front.

The Russians launch their own offensive while they were still part of the entente.
This offensive was a success, and many within the Russian leadership decided this would be the time
to pull out now while they were head.

The Russians then met with the central powers and forged a peace agreement.
Which ended up saving the Republic from falling into a revolution.

Due to the precarious situation the entente faced, and with the central powers intent on waging unrestricted submarine warfare,
The Americans joined the war thus leading to a standoff between the central powers and the Allies.

The thing is I don't know whether or not French should have the revolution during the war, or after.
Would do you think?

 

[Magdaleno]

Well I know the League of Nations would have supported independence for the nation of the caucuses.

However without the mass chaos that followed Bolshevik takeover and the Russian civil war, would these groups have had the opportunity to
Secede like they did in our world?

So we talking about an independent Western Ukraine, or the entire region?

A German partnership with Poland might be problematic by the end of the thirties.

However having Poland under the autocratic rule seems plausible.

Hm, you are right now i see that idea of Caucascus Republic was a bad one...

I think about entire Ukraine independent like here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People's_Republic

German-Polish relations wasn't so bad until 1939 when Poles refused to give Danzig to Germans. Please think about it.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Hm, you are right now i see that idea of Caucascus Republic was a bad one...

I think about entire Ukraine independent like here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People's_Republic

German-Polish relations wasn't so bad until 1939 when Poles refused to give Danzig to Germans. Please think about it.

No I mean a Caucascus Republic would've been cool.
As for this Ukrainian people's Republic, you really think I should go for it?
If so, should it be a puppet under the Russian Republic or should it be independent?

As for German-Polish relations, are you saying that there could have been a possible partnership between Poland and Germany?

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

Independent Ukraine? Whaat? So you mean that Kerensky somehow waved his magic wand again and you want a happy and peaceful Russia with Ukraine independent?

Are you sure you're not taking the civil war route?

German-Polish relations wasn't so bad until 1939 when Poles refused to give Danzig to Germans. Please think about it.

They weren't on the brink of war, but it would be stretching it at best to say it was any good- the Germans OTL refused to acknowledge the Eastern border and the Customs war between the two of them was started almost immediately after Weimar got its trade sovereignty back. Ironically, one of the highest point of relations between the two was with Hitler, when they signed the NAP. That being said, that's all in OTL so...

 

[EmperorWillham]

Independent Ukraine? Whaat? So you mean that Kerensky somehow waved his magic wand again and you want a happy and peaceful Russia with Ukraine independent?

Are you sure you're not taking the civil war route?



They weren't on the brink of war, but it would be stretching it at best to say it was any good- the Germans OTL refused to acknowledge the Eastern border and the Customs war between the two of them was started almost immediately after Weimar got its trade sovereignty back. Ironically, one of the highest point of relations between the two was with Hitler, when they signed the NAP. That being said, that's all in OTL so...

Well Kerensky is a level 10 republican warlock.
So what am I doing with Ukraine?
I mean there's bad stuff past, present, and future going on in that country.


So the Poles should become part of a independent alliance?

 

[Magdaleno]

Well Kerensky is a level 10 republican warlock.
So what am I doing with Ukraine?
I mean there's bad stuff past, present, and future going on in that country.


So the Poles should become part of a independent alliance?

I think that Ukraine should be full independent republic. I don't know what to do with Poland, maybe just like you say the independent alliance would be good enough.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

I think that Ukraine should be full independent republic. I don't know what to do with Poland, maybe just like you say the independent alliance would be good enough.

An independent Ukraine? Look at the Treaty of Brest-Livotsk and tell me just what "success" Kerensky managed to bring if he managed to lose bloody Ukraine, because I'm not seeing it. An independent Ukraine and a happy Russia are two concepts that are pretty much mutually exclusive. Other parts of Russia should not be independent either because there was no civil war that would necessitate a Russian government to acknowledge their sovereignty. Unless you want Japan to go full retard and occupy Primoriye, I suppose.

I mean, I suppose EmperorWillham's is free to do so considering the numerous divergences from the timeline, but consistency is most important. If situation was bad enough in Russia to facilitate something similar to OTL February Revolution and overthrow the Tsar, then it would be pretty clear that the people would not be very happy either about a Republican government that managed to lose everything. (Unless you want to make it so that the Russia was a happy go lucky place and that it was mostly a bourgoesis coup in this timeline, I suppose that could work, although I have doubts of how stable such a governmetn would be, or if it would even be able to exert influence outside of immediate Petrograd vicinity at allt.)

 

[Magdaleno]

An independent Ukraine? Look at the Treaty of Brest-Livotsk and tell me just what "success" Kerensky managed to bring if he managed to lose bloody Ukraine, because I'm not seeing it. An independent Ukraine and a happy Russia are two concepts that are pretty much mutually exclusive. Other parts of Russia should not be independent either because there was no civil war that would necessitate a Russian government to acknowledge their sovereignty. Unless you want Japan to go full retard and occupy Primoriye, I suppose.

I mean, I suppose EmperorWillham's is free to do so considering the numerous divergences from the timeline, but consistency is most important. If situation was bad enough in Russia to facilitate something similar to OTL February Revolution and overthrow the Tsar, then it would be pretty clear that the people would not be very happy either about a Republican government that managed to lose everything. (Unless you want to make it so that the Russia was a happy go lucky place and that it was mostly a bourgoesis coup in this timeline, I suppose that could work, although I have doubts of how stable such a governmetn would be, or if it would even be able to exert influence outside of immediate Petrograd vicinity at allt.)

So you think what? That Ukrainians would still want to be part of Russian nation, even when Empire was broken? I think that Ukrainians could see the possibility of gaining a independence after fall of Tzar and want to create they own nation.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

So you think what? That Ukrainians would still want to be part of Russian nation, even when Empire was broken? I think that Ukrainians could see the possibility of gaining a independence after fall of Tzar and want to create they own nation.

What the hell does "want" have to do with anything? A stable Russia = any Ukranian uprising gets crushed; the only way Ukraine would be independent if it was due to the Germans, which as I've said, seems to directly conflict with the idea of Kerensky succeeding in getting a favourable peace with the Germans.

 

[Magdaleno]

What the hell does "want" have to do with anything? A stable Russia = any Ukranian uprising gets crushed; the only way Ukraine would be independent if it was due to the Germans, which as I've said, seems to directly conflict with the idea of Kerensky succeeding in getting a favourable peace with the Germans.

It would be hard for Russian Republicans to not allowing Ukrainian rebellion without Tzarist Ochranka. But maybe the best way could be don't give to Russians a core on Ukraine and give choice to players if they want to create Ukrainian republic peacufully. Second thing, why you say about Kerensky all the time? he won't be a president so long.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

It would be hard for Russian Republicans to not allowing Ukrainian rebellion without Tzarist Ochranka. But maybe the best way could be don't give to Russians a core on Ukraine and give choice to players if they want to create Ukrainian republic peacufully. Second thing, why you say about Kerensky all the time? he won't be a president so long.

No cores at all would be too harsh, but rather an event chain for an Ukranian uprising similar to Kaiserreich would work- of which, if successful Russia loses those cores. Even Vanilla represents it through just pure dissent instead of giving no cores to the SU, for example, and that definitely wasn't a very peaceful situation.

As to Kerensky... uh, because he's the president? It doesn't matter how long, it matters when, and he's the one applicable about the time period.