• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

GundamMerc

General
98 Badges
Oct 7, 2014
2.112
359
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Age of Wonders
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
In my opinion, mana is neither an inherently good neither a necessarily bad mechanic. Taking a guess I would say it is attributed to the fact that EU originally is an adaption of a board game in which mana simply represents action points per turn. For a board game that is fine, for a RTS game it depends on implementation.
The main benefit of monarch power is having a fairly natural and healthy limiting factor that prevents the player from steamrolling too quickly and at the same time is not entirely frustrating or makes the game too linear. In the Total War series for example the games are very much about the economy and if you can financially support a doom stack you can go from one to ten provinces in nine turns. Good implementations of monarch power usage in EU4 are in my opinion coring and culture converting as it takes time to reap the benefits of your investments. Bad implementations are cases in which you can store monarch power and seemingly retroactively obtain an immediate benefit. Examples here are buying up stability, buying down war exhaustion and buying technology. These are bad implementations precisely because they allow you to make problems disappear if you just wait long enough rather than actually having to plan ahead and having to deal with a problem. What is the point of having a decision that costs you five stability if you can just wait long enough and make the problem go away instantaneously? Imperator in my opinion is a game that has a lot of these bad implementations. As an exaggeration you could say in Imperator as long as you have monarch points you can do anything, if you don't, it turns into a waiting game. In EU4 some issues could be easily removed by introducing a cooldown: What if you could only buy up stab, buy down war exhaustion only once per year, buy technology only once per month in each category? Even better in my opinion would be mechanics that would force you to spend your power gradually. For example you could remove the option to reduce war exhaustion and instead put in a box you can tick to grant you a sizeable reduction to your monthly war exhaustion gain for say 4 dip points a month. Similarly you could have options "stability effort" and "work on technology". Being able to retroactively apply monarch power for an instantaneous benefit simply does not encourage strategy, it encourages waiting.
A more conceptual issue is the fact that the player has very little control over the most important resources in the game, whereas the RNG element is huge, especially in the early game. In the late game you can remedy monarch point shortage by promoting advisors to a high level if you have a good economy, but early on you just need to be lucky. Getting rid of heirs and praying that you get a better one or relying on save scumming are not good solutions either. It certainly is frustrating not being able to do much while playing well simply by being unlucky. I get the idea that the rulers of a country should have an impact on the quality of your government and that some RNG is needed so that campaigns play out differently, but it certainly does feel weird that in this case a strategy game does not reward you for playing stratecial. I would much prefer a system in which the RNG element is less dominant and the player is rewarded for doing well in certain categories. Here is an example:
What if ruler stats would only range from 0 to 3 in each category and the potentially remaining 3 points per categories could be earned by meeting certain criteria (1 point per criterium):
  • Military
    being at least at 75% of your force limit
    having high enough army tradition (depending on the age)
    have high enough prestige (which is mostly earned by winning wars)
  • Diplomacy
    having high enough navy tradition (depending on the age)
    having high enough diplomatic reputation
    having enough allies/subjects
  • Admin
    have less than 5 inflation and less than 10 loans
    have less average autonomy than say 40%
    something related to institutions or unrest
I am neither saying those criteria are perfect, nor that they are any good at all, but you get the gist of the idea. On the flip side you could also put in mechanics that cost you monarch power, like -1 monthly mil for losing a war, -1 monthly dip for dishonouring an alliance, -1 monthly admin for going bancrupt and so on. In a addition to encouraging the player to think ahead and rewarding him for doing well you could have more interesting tradeoff decisions as well: Do you want to invest in a larger army (which contrary to promoting an advisor has an actual benefit aside from monarch points) and get more military power or do you want to invest in your economy? If such a system is done well you could potentially even see differences between gameplay styles: A very expansion oriented country should do really well militarily and face problems with its administration and at the same time a "tall" country would have plenty of administrative power, but would have a harder time militarily.
Summing up, mana has a tremendous advantage in providing fairly natural bounds attributed to the power of your government/tag in a game that is mostly about expansion. At the same time it also has the potential to dull the game by encouraging waiting and limiting player influence. It all depends on the implementation.

You realize that increasing stability and reducing war exhaustion are more likely to be bad decisions rather than good, right? They directly compete with technology when it comes to resources, and technology is what allows your nation to be competitive. Furthermore deciding whether to gain a tech ahead of time or not is also a strategic decision, as paying more for early adoption is often a waste of points that could be used elsewhere. However if you want the next Admin tech that allows a new idea set slot or need a military tech advantage over your enemies, then it might be a good idea to take the tech early. Just because you're storing resources doesn't mean that this is bad strategy design.

Furthermore, while it may be true that RNG plays a larger part in the early game when it comes to the amount of points produced, there is also less of a difference between those who make a lot of points and those who make a smaller amount at this stage as that only takes effect over longer periods of time. That is why who your ruler is should decide how you spend your points just as much as what your end goal is. Adapting to this hardship is a strategic decision in itself.
 

DamonIsa

Major
42 Badges
Mar 23, 2019
627
657
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
Interestingly enough... kinda while not really?

I mean most Grand Strategy Games I've played over the years go for the classic board game strategy of Symmetrical Balance. Both sides have 8 Pawns, 2 Rooks, 2 Knights, 2 Bishops, 1 Queen, 1 King sort of thing. Or in the case of usually Space Strategy games everyone has one exactly as developed central world and like 2-3 token ships for exploration/expanding in a space game. Even Stellaris does this, reaching back to a tradition going back to some of the earliest Grand Strategy games I've played.

Other are like Hearts of Iron where the idea of symmetrical balance is tossed out for the usual Baton Race kind of idea that is popular in games like Axis and Allies. The Germans start out with a heavy advantage that is going to get ground down quickly and the point is if they can expand and control faster than the allies can attrition them down and such. The slower the conquest of France and the Lowlands go, the worse the North Africa Campaign goes, the worse the Russian Campaign goes, the worse the Normandy Invasion Campaign goes, etc.

Those games are usually balanced around the idea of the primary players and their role in the relay race that is the war effort. From France's doomed status to mostly a government in Exile and if they can trip up the Germans early on, to Britain's proxy regional wars and bombing campaigns, to the usual Russian Grindfest and US invasion. But they absolutely fall apart when it comes to things like "I want to play Brazil". Heck in Hearts of Iron 2 they didn't even put Brazil in the Allies and I had to do some serious AI abuse to trick them into putting me into the alliance they were historically in. The game just isn't designed around them and even if you do stupidly well (like when I had Brazil capture the Danish peninsula from Germany to open up a front on their homeland) the game isn't set to respond to it (none of the allies actually recognized what I did or sent in any resources what so ever to it) and the game will break in odd ways (the German AI had no idea how to handle it beyond sending unsupported Tank Divisions to try to ford the strait crossings into my Anti-Tank defenses dug in on a slaughter over and over).

For me EU4 has been in a unique position as a game. It's clearly designed primarily around a few token regions/nations. But it doesn't have the "and the game breaks if you try anything else". Yes South East Asia gets no love or attention but not like the game fundamentally cracks in half if I do a successful Majapahit run. Nor does the game's mechanics punish me unduly for trying (a little considering institutions and how lacking event wise the region is, but not like it's unplayable after all).

So to an extent, in a way, it's better balanced than things like playing Hearts of Iron for me. Because if I don't play a major power of the time, the game isn't broken for me or left completely uninteractive due to the wide amount of blanket Guaranteed Independence and how the AI will drop everything to respond to it (like how the US's Guaranteed Independence which is probably meant to be the Monroe Doctrine is flawed in that it has them interrupting things like a Brazil vs Argentina war).

It also still makes it an uphill climb to do those things. But it's a gentle slope compared to a sheer cliff.

And of course it's not Symmetrical Balance considering scripted events and probabilities which... I find more interesting myself. It's less fair and balanced and I admit that. But there's something kind of interesting to me to the inequality compared to the old standby of "everyone has the same starting planet and 3 ship fleet" or the like from Space Grand Strategy games typically.