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unmerged(774347)

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Jul 26, 2013
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  • The Showdown Effect
Hi guys !

First of all, let me explain why I'm making this post, and please remember that most of my affirmations are just my opinion.
Also I'm not a born english speaker, please be forgiving :D.

...

I was able to play Teleglitch during beta, did some feedback and that's it, I didn't try to final game, no time, forgot about it.
Few days ago, I got a mail giving me a Steam key.
I tried the game and even if I still like it, I got really frustrated, mostly due to my beta experience.
The problem is not the game being too hard, the problem is I had much more fun during the beta than I have now, mostly due to a few things that I my opinion are worth changing.

Some of my feedback was about the early game being too easy and the first 2 levels never played more than a few times.
Okay, this changed, but not only in a good way.

Early game (level 1-2) are supposed to be an introduction to the game, both are really repetitive, and lack the best aspects of the game, like gunfights and different ammo management.
Before, you would do them once, unlock level 3, and never play them again.
Problem was you wouldn't spend to much time on crafting, managing your inventory and using knife, making the levels 3+ more difficult in some way, the nailgun being kind of mandatory at this point.

Now, I'm stuck in those levels, didn't pass level 3 even once, and never got close to it.
You could say I should just get better, that's true, I could probably finish level 3 by trying to do a perfect run of level 1/2, but that's not the point.
Latest levels should require to play almost perfectly, not the two first ones.

During the beta, a "good" player could go from level 1 to 5 almost every time in one try, now it's almost impossible.
Something in the middle would be more rewarding and would add more focus to the latest levels, which are way more fun to explore.
After doing the first levels 10 times, I know exactly which rooms I'm gonna find.

So, "what's the problem ?" you gonna ask.
-I don't start with a freaking 9mm.

Having new weapons is cool, it's fun and add some random to the game ... but ... it also ruins some other aspect of the game.
During my beta experience, you would loot around 3 or 4 9mm pistols during the first 3 levels, including the one you would start with.
This was allowing you to craft a nailgun around level 1 or 2, and an automatic 9mm a bit later, while often keeping a normal 9mm for precision purposes.

Now, you don't start with a 9mm, and you can't (never saw one in like 10 tries) get one in the first level. You almost always get a shotgun and a agl, but not a freaking 9mm ... what ?
So what happen everytime is I have tons of 9mm ammo, + enough nails to do 200+ nailgun ammo ... but I have none of those guns. Also if I have one, I cannot upgrade 9mm to automatic, otherwise preventing from getting a nailgun.
And as soon as I craft the nailgun ... my 9mm ammo are useless again.

My problem here is that even If you know how strong the nailgun is, at least for ammo management, you can't even craft it in most runs because you don't get the required items.
I think there is always one 9mm per run (at level 3 if I remember) , but you don't always find it, since exploring 100% of a level is getting harder and harder.
So what about the new player that are gonna try&die 20 times and not really notice that you can craft an early-game oriented weapon call "nailgun" ? (I think you get the recipe from computers, but I'm not sure most people will notice that)

In my opinion you should loot way more 9mm, I would say one in first level in a secret area, and one in the 2nd in a normal loot crate.
This would allow people to use the 2 least powerfull weapon of the game more often. I mean why having a 9mm and a nailgun If you can't use them be4 level 3 ?
Also this would allow people to play from level 3 quicker, even with this change the early game would still be pretty hard, but understanding how to craft the nailgun would work as a trigger to unlock the "3rd level start" quicker.
And that's how the early game would work In my opinion, emphasis the importance of crafting by making the game hard if you don't use it correctly, make the difficulty teach the player.

Right now, the difficulty doesn't teach much, apart from trying to get a better random that allows you to loot a lot of stuff without wasting much ammo, and killing zombies with a knife (which is almost completely useless later).

And ... that's it, this post isn't really about whining because the game is too hard, just that' I'm frustrated to play the first part of the game, which now became boring, over and over, without really having a solution in terms of crafting.
I'm thinking about new players who would give up earlier just because they cannot make it to the "fun" part of the game, when you have a lot more weapons and ammo.
I hope this text is understandable and that I didn't miss something that would allow me to have an easier time in early game.
Also I'm pretty sure I could "beat" the beginning of the game with a bit more effort, but I feel it's a waste of time, which is why I make this post.

Anyway thanks for reading and feel free to discuss (and correct my English :p).
 
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Hello,

We appreciate your feedback.

Regarding the 9mm: If you go into options and turn RSG = OFF you will always start with 9mm as in the original.

RSG = ON mean you have the pre-order items activated; which is the randomized starting items.
 
Interesting.

So the pre-order items are all attainable via the random starting selections? That's good to know.
 
I think Aiua is right. I never played the Beta but how the randomized starting items are more of a disadvantage than anything else. I thought the idea is pretty fun but as long as the item spawn is as fixed as it is (as in: You will only find 9mm ammo and nothing else in the first level (and seemingly onward)) it seems like a burden in a already pretty difficult game. What could be the advantage of having a weapon with me that I will never be able to find ammo for?

Which brings me to the next topic I want to talk about. I love hardcore games and really like Teleglitch but the first few levels are simply too hard. It would be different if you would implement a easy mode but now it just gets repetetive and boring. I play video games way too long and for sure I'm not a bad player but still I'm exactly 76 minutes into the game and saw just the first minute of Level 2. That's quite frustrating for a lot of people I think (me too in a way). I will fight through that, I'm sure but I think it's not a wise business decision to alienate people from "higher levels" just because they might not be near perfect playing games. In the end we want to have fun, right?

Conclusion of my view: Think better about the implementation of the randomized items and either implement a easy mode or do something about the difficutly of the first 3 levels.

Otherwise very awesome game!
 
Its our mistake, that random starting gear option is turned on by default, it was meant to add little replayability value for players who have already completed the game.

I watched a lot of lets-play videos from Youtube and it seems that the most effective strategy to get trough firs levels is running backwards while constantly knifing everybody and that was not the way we intended it to be. It looks really boring. Giving less ammo was meant to pressure people to use more bombs, not more knife. :)

We definitely do something about it.
 
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My experience (after about 20 hours with the game where about 2-3 are in Die More and the rest is in old one).

The random starting gear does indeed make it harder, so much so that I turned it off. From not really being able to progress past level 2 I consistently (barring the odd screw up) to get to atleast level4.

In old version I got to level 5 quite easy and the furthest I got was level8.

If you're intrested in seeing my gameplay (and possibly learn something new) check out my playlist here (later videos are better in all regards, skills, commentaries etc. Especially the ironmanning movies): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6DheucODiLjE0r7Y6coIKLgO_uIz8Jh8
Die more will be published in a little while.
 
Its our mistake, that random starting gear option is turned on by default, it was meant to add little replayability value for players who have already completed the game.

I watched a lot of lets-play videos from Youtube and it seems that the most effective strategy to get trough firs levels is running backwards while constantly knifing everybody and that was not the way we intended it to be. It looks really boring. Giving less ammo was meant to pressure people to use more bombs, not more knife. :)

We definitely do something about it.

I find that bombs are hardly effective against swarms of units, maybe I am using them wrong, but I wouldn't know how to use them otherwise. Also, it seems like you really need the explosives later on in the game so I would still not waste them early game if I could just as well knife.
But I DO absolutely agree that it is bothersome to knife trough level 1-3 all the time and that's why I know just started playing from level 3 even though it gives me worse starting gear. I appreciate the resource management, but you should also keep in mind that it is just FUN to shoot enemies but right now you get punished to hard for it even if you have like >80% accuracy..

Also, I don't know if this was intended or not, but the way I play the game now boils down to carefully checking out rooms then constantly running backwards kiting the different enemies, or against guards just duck around a corner and wait for them with a shotgun. I like the difficulty of this game a lot, but it also forces you to play extremely conservative and repetitive I feel.

Otherwise great game enjoying it a lot, missed level 7 barely last night, but I'll get there eventually :d, though I couldn't quite figure out if my heavy rifle ammo did any damage to that monster at all..?

EDIT: I'd also suggest more randomized loot drops, right now I know exactly what I can expect if I fully clear a level and that is actually kinda boring and ruins the surprise and expectation of opening chests and finding something awesome you did not expect. I know you need certain stuff to move on, but it would be nice if at least part of the loot system was completely randomized.
 
I would like to chime in with some of my experiences.

I played Teleglitch quite a lot in its old incarnation. I loved the atmosphere, built through the great blend of the minimalist graphics, the brilliant sound design, the many evocative text messages and the tough but fair difficulty level. The game was kept fresh by the way the levels were randomly arranged from its basic elements and I was very pleased how there was even an in game reason for that.
This kept me coming back to the game over and over again for months and as time passed I got better at playing it. I got never very good at it as I tended to do one two runs and then let the game go for a while. So the best I ever did was level 4 so far although I was close to reaching level 5.

I was very happy to see the game being taken up by Paradox and released on Steam because I think this is a brilliant little gem of a game that deserves all the attention it can get.

I write all this so that it is clear that my criticism of the new version of Teleglitch come from place of deep appreciation and respect.


The Die More Edition pretty much says what it says on the tin.
I started playing the game and I died so much more.

The RSG feature is cool and it was fun to play around with it at first but this lead to my inevitable death every time as the new equipment was either not that much help, or was actually pretty sweet but would not see any more ammo for a long while.
But fair enough I thought this is for those people with transhuman skill who can beat the game with the abilities they gained by playing the game a lot. Fair enough

So I switched RSG off and started playing the game normally.
I died a few seconds after reaching level 2 being armed with three weapons and no ammo.
I noticed that the balance of the game had shifted and that all in all it had become harder than before.

At first I had no problem with that, after all I am a bit of a veteran in the game and I assumed that I was having problems by playing the game old style instead of the new way.

I replayed the first level several times and the effect was always the same.
I either die in the later parts of the level or pretty much the moment I step out of the telporter to level 2.
Ammo is never sufficient despite me being by now a better shot than during the original version, using bombs in a clever way does lessen the effect a bit but leaves me without the explosives to build new items, and while knifing seems to be the new black in this game I at least am not nearly good enough to use this as a viable alternative to shooting. The 9mm gun does less damage if I am seeing things correctly, there is less ammo and the items that I find during a run through in a level seem to be fixed. It might be a streak of bad luck but so far I was never able to build either a nail-gun or make nail ammo during level 1 at all.

The strange result of all of this is that the game has become, for me at least, very repetitive and frustrating.
In the older version there seemed to be more variation and even though I was always short on pretty much everything there was always something that I could cobble together or use to my advantage. I had the chance to horde tiny amounts of gear for a rainy day. (Rainy day = shower of mutants after having run out of nails and bullets)
I had to be careful, hedge my bets and make do with what I had.

Now though the game seems to have narrowed considerably the amount of choice I have as a player to survive. This not only increases the difficulty (which is not a bad thing per se mind you) but also has considerably narrowed down my options. Right now I am not playing to get to the next level, right now, when I can bring myself to do so I am trying to solve the puzzle of what I need to do to survive in a way that will give me the slightest chance of survival once reaching the second level.

Teleglitch was for me a game of exploration and survival.
Now it has become a game of survival and maybe exploration.
In the original version my tendency to go through all nooks an crannies in every level was risky but there was a possibility for this being rewarded, in the new version there does not seem to be any reason not to make a beeline for the Teleporter as soon as one has gotten all the main weapons of the level. In some cases it might even be better to simply jump into the teleporter directly as getting anything else will both deplete ammo reserves as well as hit-points.
It is also tempting to resort to cheesy strategies, as all the monsters that see the player will follow him it is easier to run around like a mutant version of the Pied Piper of Hamlin, kiting them all into one room and getting rid of them with a well timed bomb.

In the end it seems that the game has been fine tuned by people who have become extremely skilled in the game but in the process have left the rest of us who are not as skilled as them behind. It also leaves people like me who liked the tense exploration of the original without that much to do.

So right now I am back to the pre-Steam version for my Teleglitch fix but it would be great if some options could be added to the Steam version of the game which add different ways to balance the game.
Making these optional people like me can play it more in the survival adventure vein of the old version and leave the new balance in there for those who prefer the game to be more focused on action. It might even be connected to several options that would allow people to tailor the game even more closely to their tastes, without losing the core flavour of the game.
 
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Another vet weighing in:

I think the overall issue I have with RSG is that the items themselves just aren't worth it. The pink death and the long john are both worse than the heavy rifle, the silver spoon is just a bad 9mm, the dynamite and SDCC may as well be "knife start". The only starting item with any value in the long run is the powerlegs, as it remains useful for the whole game.

That last part is really the problem- you get a lot of mileage out of your starting 9mm, as ammo is relatively plentiful, the weapon is reasonably strong, and it gives you a component needed to make certain other helpful items, too. Most of the starting items are so bad that they're barely useful in the first level, let alone the next two.

Frankly, it would be much more interesting if the starting items had value. They really are "starting items" in every way right now- you'll discard them as soon as you have their "real" counterpart and need the inventory space. If the desire is to make these items breathe a little extra life into additional playthroughs, then the solution is pretty obvious. Make these weapons strong enough to warrant carrying all game, thereby "spicing" that playthrough's style of play.

Just make them marginally better for certain situations. For instance, dynamite could have a much wider but less damaging explosion than RDX500 (making it great for huge swarms), the pink death could 2-hit war walkers at point blank (high risk, high reward), the SDCC could have a slight AoE.

I think this is really the only way to make the RSG a worthwhile feature.

Oh, and please- change the secret area items to more randomized, or at least different in some other way. I've stopped opening them at all in level 1 and 2b, nailbombs and canguns just aren't worth the ammo to break the wall. Unfortunate, but true.

Erm, other than that, I really have enjoyed Die More so far! It took me quite a few tries to beat the game again, and the new levels were delightfully challenging. Good work, and thanks!
 
I agree with the two posters above on basically everything they've said.

The seemingly fixed gear, harder enemies, RSG being lack luster.

It also seems to me that enemies with guns do way more damage than they used to.
I can pretty easily get to level 4 (or 4b) where there starts appearing red guards (usually carrying a 9mm, machinegun or a shotgun) and they completely destroy me. I've played about 20 "games" and about 15 of those have ended on level 4.

In the old version I got to level5 quite easily and the record was level8 and was closing on level9.
Right now it feels like I've hit a brick wall and I don't have enough options to make it through barring luck.

As you've beaten the game Baeolophus could you give me a clue on how to transition from melee monsters to gun monsters?
Do you have any good tips for me?
 
No comments for the devs?

Does anyone here know if the last patch 8.8 resolved any of these issues and/or if there is a mod that turns the game more into Teleglitch 'classic'?

Thanks in advance.