A better method of british decolonization?

[Suomenusko]

I've played many games, and whenever the british AI selects the decolonization focus, it always ends badly. The multitude of nations created out of the focus don't really add to the game in my opinion. Even though their core population is huge, they usually end up as just a bump in the road for the axis. They also slow down the game by adding more units the CPU has to keep track of, and lots of capitulation that have to be seen when they get invaded by a single italian unit.

I think a better way to incorporate decolonization in hoi4 is to give each colonial region it's own nation. For example, give Egypt the nation of "British Colonial Egypt" with King Farouk as leader of the democratic party. The nation is a puppet of britain, and has maluses (sp?) Like " colonial economy: minus 10% factory output, +10% overlord construction speed" basically encouraging british investment in colonial areas.

If we did this for each area of british colonies, it would speed up the game's performance, because now the construction and divisions of 40+ countries dont need to be calculated.

I also think troops should be able to be deployed from the decisions menu. Basically you make a "colonial troop" template, and on the decision page you monitor the industrial output and capabilities of your decolonized puppets, who have naturally joined the allies. It would say something like,

Cost of producing 1 *assault* division is 496 P, 2000 manpower. 10 divisions ready to deploy in Cairo.

But the puppets have less production than you, but you can mitigate this by spending political power, consumer factories, and civilian factories to improve the industrial situation.

 

[MobiusTwo]

I actually wrote a big, long post about why I dislike the British decolonization tree here. I'm not sure that whole division part moved to the decisions tab is necessary tbh - if the game is lagging really bad you can just automatically take control of your subjects' weak colonial troops and delete them. I also think Egypt is a poor example of a country to demonstrate your new plan - the political situation there was extremely complex and Egypt is one of those countries that could probably be promoted to an actual puppet with a focus tree. That said, I definitely agree with your problems with decolonization.

 

[squid_hills]

You're correct that the Decolonization branch is terrible, but I'm not sure your solution would do much to fix that. I think Decolonization is meant to be a terrible idea during/immediately prior to the war, because it would've been a terrible idea IRL. While the breakup of the British Empire was a good thing for the people who lived in the colonies, if it had happened during a shooting war the result would have been the same IRL as it is in-game: the Axis would end up owning everything. You can dismantle an Empire in peacetime, but you don't want to do it during a war.

The Decolonization NF is in the game mostly for the benefit of (and a requirement for) the UK Communist path. While the manpower boost you get from it is attractive, it overall weakens the Allies by covering the map in a mass of countries that have no industry, and thus, no way to produce units or contribute to the war. In addition, I believe at the very end of the branch the Dominions leave the Allies, which is even more of a handicap.

But all of that is on purpose. The Decolonization branch is tied to the UK Communist path for a reason: it penalizes the UK and forces them to play a different game. It is the same reason the German Civil War borks German industry and cuts their army in half for Monarchist/Democratic Germany. Monarchist Germany isn't going to go to war with all of Europe (at least not automatically... the player can choose to do so, but it's better to focus on either the Allies or the Comintern) so it doesn't need the massive boost in industry that Germany gets in-game. Communist UK needs to play differently than Democratic UK, otherwise the NF tree is just a complicated way of turning your political pie all red, so you get your Empire taken away from you and have to work from there.

The problem, as I see it, isn't that Decolonization exists, it is that a non-historic game can have the UK AI decolonize while staying Democratic during WWII, which is suicide for the AI. And for the rest of the Allies, come to think of it.

I think the better solution is for the AI to be locked out of taking the Decolonization path, unless it has already committed to going Communist. I think the player should still be able to take it as Democratic UK, if they want (for RP purposes, or for a challenge or something) but the AI shouldn't be allowed to Decolonize on it's own without changing it's government. That way we wouldn't see a Democratic UK shooting itself in the head in the middle of WWII, or (even sillier) a Decolonized Fascist UK (no lie; I did see that last one happen once).

 

[Faeelin]

Isn't the real problem that it's not like the Soviet Union decolonized lands conquered by the Russian Empire? Wouldn't they become glorious people's republics in the new Commonwealth?

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

- if the game is lagging really bad you can just automatically take control of your subjects' weak colonial troops and delete them.

“Disbanding” troops you’ve taken control of that aren’t yours doesn’t delete them. It returns them to their owner’s control.

 

[Suomenusko]

snip

I feel like your post laid out a really good justification for the existence of the decolonizaiton path, but not really a justification for it mechanically. I get that its *realistic*, but that's not my concern. My point wasn't "The decolonization focus weakens the UK" my point was "Every time i play a game and AI britain does the focus, either those nations don't help at all or are immediately flattened."

I'm all for making the game harder on UK if they choose the decolonization focus, but what i'm advocating for is to make it easier mechanically and behind the scenes to deal with. The CPU benefits from not having to calculate all the units and National Focuses, and whatnot would be good, but also would provide more of a challenge to Axis players.


Decolonized Africa is still going to have strategic resources and locations, like Suez or oil producing regions in the middle east. Realistically, those places had little industry and on their own would not be able to resist Axis invaders. But in terms of the game, the axis being able to steamroll them just makes it too easy.

 

[Surimi]

Isn't the real problem that it's not like the Soviet Union decolonized lands conquered by the Russian Empire? Wouldn't they become glorious people's republics in the new Commonwealth?

True.

While I get that a lot of the alternate ideology paths for major nations are incredibly silly, the communist Britain path in particular has a bit of an identity crisis in that all its leaders are hardcore Stalinists, but the decolonization path (and the inclusion of Pankhurst and Orwell as ministers) kind of implies a more eurocommunist stance.

The other issue is that there is really no political support in Britain at the time for decolonization, even on the left. Decolonization was something that was pushed by inhabitants of the colonies themselves, and having Britain just wake up and decide to decolonize in 1936 doesn't really make sense even in this world where ideologies can flip all over the place on a dime. The decolonisation path should probably be reframed as the government giving limited self-rule to the colonies in return for a greater contribution to the war effort, with colonised countries becoming puppets or collaboration governments rather than free nations and the general bonuses to the UK increased to make it competitive.

This would also make it a much more plausible option for a Stalinist communist UK.

 

[squid_hills]

I feel like your post laid out a really good justification for the existence of the decolonizaiton path, but not really a justification for it mechanically. I get that its *realistic*, but that's not my concern. My point wasn't "The decolonization focus weakens the UK" my point was "Every time i play a game and AI britain does the focus, either those nations don't help at all or are immediately flattened."

Which I addressed. That's the bit about "make the AI unable to choose Decolonization at all, unless it has already chosen to go Communist".

Locking the AI out from choosing Decolonization as any ideology other than Communist will solve the problem you keep having, by completely preventing the UK from shooting itself in the head in 1936. None of those fiddly little countries with no industry and no divisions will spawn at all, thus preventing the overall strategic weakening of the UK/Allies. Locking the AI out also has the benefit of being easier to program than something that involves PP decisions, because all they really have to do is alter the % chance the AI will take the NF.

It won't solve the problem of a Communist UK Decolonizing, but at that point; the UK went Communist, you're already in for a sh** show and Decolonization is the least of your problems (whelp, the UK went Commie and is gonna sit the war out while it eats its own face, the Dominions won't get involved at all, and the US is out until WT hits 100%... I sure hope France put on its big boy pants today, because otherwise Europe is screwed).

 

[Ketchup & friends]

@Idle America has proposed a small but meaningful fix. We like that suggestion.

 

[Idle America]

Hey, I've been referenced!

 

[kettyo]

I'd say it is most weird that stalinists grant autonomies for the colonies and make them independent.

I'm totally sure that real stalinists should have decolonized with centralization in the process so actually have eliminated the existing autonomies of the colonies and dominions. Hey let's see how much autonomies the member republics in the USSR had. Look very hard!

Communism is not about granting autonomies and freedoms, it's about everyone being an equal subordinate of a strong and centralized state.

 

[Idle America]

I'd say it is most weird that stalinists grant autonomies for the colonies and make them independent.

I'm totally sure that real stalinists should have decolonized with centralization in the process so actually have eliminated the existing autonomies of the colonies and dominions. Hey let's see how much autonomies the member republics in the USSR had. Look very hard!

Communism is not about granting autonomies and freedoms, it's about everyone being an equal subordinate of a strong and centralized state.

I think the big issue, is that the AI finishes decolonizing before going Red. Formed subjects automatically take on their masters' ideology, which at the time is Blue.

 

[kettyo]

I think the big issue, is that the AI finishes decolonizing before going Red. Formed subjects automatically take on their masters' ideology, which at the time is Blue.

Hmm i see all new third world countries being red. Maybe using a mod?

 

[Idle America]

Hmm i see all new third world countries being red. Maybe using a mod?

That's odd, considering I'm running on Ironman-friendly.

 

[kettyo]

That's odd, considering I'm running on Ironman-friendly.

Maybe they go red when you do the final decolonization focus?

Never have played communist Britain so i don't know but the British AI does this final focus after switching to communism i think so maybe this paint all of them red.

 

[Idle America]

Maybe they go red when you do the final decolonization focus?

Never have played communist Britain so i don't know but the British AI does this final focus after switching to communism i think so maybe this paint all of them red.

Come to think of it, I've never seen Red Britain finish decolonizing... mainly because the game's chugging by that point, because they continue to decolonize in the middle of a war.

 

[kettyo]

Come to think of it, I've never seen Red Britain finish decolonizing... mainly because the game's chugging by that point, because they continue to decolonize in the middle of a war.

That's strange as i see them going Comintern before their very first war.