A BETTER BURGANDY

[MILIANO]

Hi i think BURGANDY

should have another ambition to do(another than the idea to form the Netherlands)the original dream of the Duc of Burgandy

was to recreate the kingdom of Lotharingie

(wich is a french kingdom but imperial the capital was Luxemburg,it's Netherland+Burgandy) and the duc bought the province of alsace and sundgu( utrecht was a vassal of the duc)from the habsburgs before beig betrayed by them,i think a stronger bugundy who would be able to deal with France(the big blue-_-) would be intresting,and if it could form Lotharingie well it could fill the hole in the west of the holy romain empire(there is austria in the south,boheme in the east but any powerfull country in the west of the empire.
Burgundy need better ideas(i mean france and austria have a bonus in morale)he could at least have a bonus in diplomacy.
Burgundy could even claim the French crown(it's the same dynastie,Bourgone and Valois.
sadly Burgundy is the first big nation to fall.

 

[tobias.mb]

Well it is a bit frustrating that nowadays, Burgundy never survives. In the past it was rare, but it happened sometimes. So I am all for buffing them.
But their NI are fine imho and don't need a buff. Cheaper and more mercs is pretty good.
Also they can already form France (just like every other french nation & navarre); or do you mean they get claims?
And about forming Lothringia, I think that's sufficiently represented by the "upgrade government rank" mechanic. Maybe they could get a decision / event firing for Burgundy with kingdom rank that gives them +1 dip rep?

Anyways I think the best way to buff Burgundy would be to give them decisions / missions, that help integrating their vassals and PUs.
Also, I often see Burgundy ruining itself with an attack on liege (and thus the emperor). But that's really an AI thing. However maybe the mission to annex liege could be removed. (I know it makes sense historically. But Burgundy should really target Provence, Normandy (while England holds it) and Brittany before messing with the emperor or france)

 

[MILIANO]

That was burgandy.
i don't mean forming frans but pu france with a mission(it's teh same dynastie) and for forming Lothringia it could be a decision(like forming germany or netherlands,as you can see in the map liege is already owned as vassal,even gelre,cleves and vermandois are owned,i said a bonus in diplomacy because the state of burgandy were a groupe of vassal under the leadership of the duc so the diplomacy were vitalen,Lothringia could have new bonus like defense (because it's between germany and france)and yeah new mission would be great but if Lothringia is not formed and it's not a part of the empire this state can't do shit,can't attack france(no chance) or neither the empire without bein a member(no chance if austria is emperor),except for attacking england and provence after that the burgandy is stuck,so i think burgandy should be able to form the kingdom(yeah an upgrade in gov)and become a member of the empire to be able to do something,sonce teh last apdate it's very rare seeing burgandy winn against france and austria no chance,bugandy needs a mision to pu france(the duc used to be the regence in france) or be able to forme Lothringia and join the empire as a kingdom.

 

[tobias.mb]

Burgundy can definitly beat France. Sure if it waits until france has eaten Provence & Brittany than it's over for Burgundy. Which is why I said Burgundy should be hellbent on munching these before france can; instead of fighting a ruinous war over liege against the emperor.
Burgundy with Provence, Berry, Lothringia (annex as part of war with provence) and Normandy integrated can very much challange france. Especially if they get an alliance with Aragon, Castile and/or one of the medium HRE states in the vivinity (savoy, milan, bavaria - depends on how well they do for themselves).

Don't misunderstand I'm not saying Burgundy is as strong as France. It is not. But so what? Aragon is also weaker than Castile and they are enemies 95% of the games.

 

[MILIANO]

i'm not saying it's imposible to beat france(with alliances you can survive) but ai lose most of the time,i'm just saynig that burgundy has't all the province that he should own and there should be an possible way of evolution for burgundy because forming netherlands a giving the french territory to france it's not very tempting,an evolution to reform the old kingdom of lotharangia it's a better evolution i think.If lotharangie could have new odea well the state could use his new ideas to deal with austra&france.
i'm not saying burgundy is weak and france too stong,i'm saying that burgundy should be able to form another country than the netherlands because if you forl netherlands with burgundy you loose too many provinces,an evolution in forming lotharangia were burgundy could keep his provinces and join the HRE as a member(or not ) seems better,after all it was the goal of the Duc of burgundy historically.