A battleship can be built in 240 days with very basic technology.

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ringhloth

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But if the major powers are running around with as many battleships as they had in WW1, the strategic decision making is completely different to the reality of WW2. This game is supposed to allow players to explore alternatives to what actually happened, not place players in a fantasy alternate reality. Building capital ships was a long term undertaking, and players should have to plan ahead just as their real life counterparts did. Each capital ship should be precious and the loss of a capital ship should represent a long term loss to a nations naval strength and not just be a matter of I'll build a replacement and have it operational within 12 months.
240 days is still a long undertaking. If everyone is building 3x the amount of battleships, you'll probably have maybe 1.5x to 2x the amount of battleships that were around at any point in time historically. After all, that means that there are going to be more battles and more losses than there were historically. I don't think that's terrible.
 
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Axe99

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Short ship time -> more dynamic naval game (good) + more/bigger fleet battles (so that a naval war isn't just 6 months of waiting between battles and then over when one side kills a few battleships and carriers -> good) -> more ships needed to replace losses after a battle -> more oil need for upkeeping a navy that is constantly fighting. I don't care about minor historical details when it leads to more interesting gameplay and more accurate major historical details.

You can have 'more interesting' gameplay (and I have no issue at all with you finding this more interesting, but I personally like the historically plausible challenge of having to plan capital ship fleets years in advance), but you're not going to get more accurate major historical details if you're pumping out capital ships in the less than 18 months. For example, the US will roll over the top of Japan far quicker, because time from 'gear up' to Task Force 38 is half as long. Also, far more task forces than occurred historically isn't more historically accurate. More fun from a certain perspective, and reasonable game design decision, but not an accurate major historical detail.

You asume that the ships are built serial, which they arent. 15 dockyards arent building 1 ship at a time but rather 15 at a time, thats why 15 dockyards need much more resources than simply 1 does. 1 dockyard needs alot of time to completle an battleship.

Same goes with any other equipment. It is not like one factory builds the breach one builds the trigger, one builds the magazines and one puts them together into rifles, for example. Of course they wont get completed at the same time because such things never occured in real life and it would kinda suck gameplay wise for you waiting 2-3 years for 15 ships launching at once. They simply average the output, which is good.

Just look at it.
1 dockyard takes roughly 3600 days. 15 dockyards take 240 days. 240x15= 3600, so they are roughly the same, just that the 15 factories build them in paralell.


The american Liberty cargoshop for example. The initial ship took 244 days to construct, while they eventually averaged at 42 days construction time, but thats aside the point.

My point is, that it doesnt mean that one ship launched every 42 days, but every single day 4 of them were launched.

Besides that, you will rarely be able to put 15 dockyards onto an battleship production line, since that would be ridicoulously expensive.

We are speculating, but from what we can see, the game operates in a serial sense - so in terms of how they output, it is one ship at a time popping out more quickly. That said, as FOARP has mentioned, all these values will be subject to balancing in the beta.
 
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Denkt

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I wonder how much a dockyard cost. We know that military factories and civilian factories don't cost the same to build. We also know that dockyards are not included into the consumer goods need. We also know that you can only build dockyards in coastal stats so countries that have many high populated coastal stats will have an advantage in the naval races.
 

LordOfWar16

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We are speculating, but from what we can see, the game operates in a serial sense - so in terms of how they output, it is one ship at a time popping out more quickly. That said, as FOARP has mentioned, all these values will be subject to balancing in the beta.

15 docks dont suddenly spit out one battleship after 240 days of course, but 15 docks build 15 ships and one might gets completed every half a year or so. Thats what the system tries to simulate, i guess. Thats why each dock you add increases the cost of the production. If 15 docks would work on 1 ship the cost wouldnt suddenly drasticly increase. Its abstracted with the output per day/week/month/year, since that works best for the game. It would be insane if you built on an battleship production line with 15 docks and after 3 years suddenly have 15 battleships popping up in an game focused around 12 years.

Most nations wont be able to affort to put 15 docks on battleships anyway. People seem to forget that you pay 15 times more if you set it to 15 docks.
 
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Caesar15

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15 docks dont suddenly spit out one battleship after 240 days of course, but 15 docks build 15 ships and one might gets completed every half a year or so. Thats what the system tries to simulate, i guess. Thats why each dock you add increases the cost of the production. If 15 docks would work on 1 ship the cost wouldnt suddenly drasticly increase. Its abstracted with the output per day/week/month/year, since that works best for the game. It would be insane if you built on an battleship production line with 15 docks and after 3 years suddenly have 15 battleships popping up in an game focused around 12 years.

If this is true then what's there to worry about?
 

LordOfWar16

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If this is true then what's there to worry about?
look at the recording of the twitch stream. The G/H/I Class costs 2 steel and 1 oil. He sets it to 15 docks with only 4 being active. This production line costs him 8 steel and 4 oil. It is an proportional increase in cost. If you added 15 docks to an production line you would pay the price of 15 battleships.

An Queen Elizabeth Class production line on 15 dockyards would cost 45 steel, 15 oil and 15 chromium. The UK only has 21 oil, 202 steel and 119 chromium atleast in the beginning. More advanced designs get more expensive of course.
ab0b9f0e5b5e718f2af522d3801d3405.jpg


9019806ed4b57cb52016ff61d1f4ea3f.jpg

Same goes with the Weapons I aswell. They cost 2 steel each and he pays 28 steel on 14 factories.
 
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Caesar15

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look at the recording of the twitch stream. The G/H/I Class costs 2 steel and 1 oil. He sets it to 15 docks with only 4 being active. This production line costs him 8 steel and 4 oil. It is an proportional increase in cost. If you added 15 docks to an production line you would pay the price of 15 battleships.

An Queen Elizabeth Class production line on 15 dockyards would cost 45 steel, 15 oil and 15 chromium. The UK only has 21 oil, 202 steel and 119 chromium atleast in the beginning.
ab0b9f0e5b5e718f2af522d3801d3405.jpg


9019806ed4b57cb52016ff61d1f4ea3f.jpg

Same goes with the Weapons I aswell. They cost 2 steel each and he pays 28 steel on 14 factories.

So a battleship can be produced very fast, but it's pretty cost heavy and wouldn't really be worth it?
 

LordOfWar16

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So a battleship can be produced very fast, but it's pretty cost heavy and wouldn't really be worth it?
Yes, it would cost insane amount of resources. 45 steel is alot. You could build roughly 75 Weapon I a day with it, eyeballing the production in the screenshot and taking his current efficiency cap into account. Those 21 oil could be used to produce tanks, planes, trucks, etc.

I dont really see mass producing big ships early on of any use. Later on when you secured alot of resources maybe, but certainly not early on. I doubt that you will see alot of UK players (for example) completing their first queen elizabeth class within 1936.
 

Axe99

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15 docks dont suddenly spit out one battleship after 240 days of course, but 15 docks build 15 ships and one might gets completed every half a year or so. Thats what the system tries to simulate, i guess. Thats why each dock you add increases the cost of the production. If 15 docks would work on 1 ship the cost wouldnt suddenly drasticly increase. Its abstracted with the output per day/week/month/year, since that works best for the game. It would be insane if you built on an battleship production line with 15 docks and after 3 years suddenly have 15 battleships popping up in an game focused around 12 years.

Most nations wont be able to affort to put 15 docks on battleships anyway. People seem to forget that you pay 15 times more if you set it to 15 docks.

I totally get the cost thing, but it doesn't cost more as far as I can see - it costs the same, but you pay it all within a smaller amount of time.

On the by, 15 docks all working on a BB for five years each and popping out 15 ships at once is actually a lot, lot more historically plausible and appropriate than 15 docks working on a line of BBs and popping the first out in under a year. Take the KGV class - five ships laid down in 1937, five ships are operational between December 1940 and August 1942 (with three coming out in the 12 months between December 1940 and December 1941). The first ship isn't operational until WW2 has been on the go for over 12 months. Under the serial instead of parallel model, you'd have a couple of BBs done before the war started, giving the UK a leg-up navally.

The Essex class CVs is probably the best way of looking at the issues that this holds (and the US is likely to be able to comfortably have 15 dockyards on it - in fact, arguably the US should have the maximum possible build speed on them). Historically, the US laid down 9 in 1941 and 1942, and these 8 were launched between 1942 and 1943, but the shortest break between laying down and launching (still not completing) for any of these ships is 10 months (and still took another 6 months to complete). The first CV, Essex, was laid down in April 1941, launched in July '42 and was operational on 31 December '42. Using the serial rather than parallel model though using these numbers (which I know aren't final), you'd have 2-3 Essex CVs operational before Midway (possibly one before Pearly Harbour!) - completely changing the balance of the Pacific War.

It's not a problem for ships smaller than an LC, because there'll usually be enough of these floating around already that it's not an issue. Even for BBs, Japan's about the only nation that could really benefit from going all-in on mass-building them early, but for CVs, accelerated production times can have a huge impact on the dynamics of the conflict, particularly when the US enters the war. In a historical playthrough, it makes life much, much harder for Japan.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad gameplay decision (and that's assuming these are anywhere near the final numbers, which they may not be, but let's play devil's advocate and say hey were) - not having to make as many long-term decisions makes things more accessible, and this is not a bad thing :). Being able to pump out task forces and having a lot more naval battles can be fun - but there's equally nothing wrong with some of us wanting the timing to be a bit more historically plausible.
 
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simm_s0

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What disappoints me is that it's already looking like a naval mod will be required; I don't want 12-month battleship building, or naval tech starting in 1922. :(
I think what we hope for is that the maximum number of factories commitable to a ship is not hard coded. Limit it to say 5 a ship and suddenly it takes a minimum 720 days to build a BB.
 
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GsusNSV

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Why not think in this way, you actually assign a number of dockyards to work parrallel on a single ship.
First a dock where the ship is actually build.
Second "dockyard" is building the guns and turrets. (A naval gun actually took longer to build then the ship, so they were ordered even before the ship was finished planing. GB order the 14'' Guns for the KGV in late '35, while the first two ships were only ordered in July '36)
Third a factory for the engine and ship's propeller. And so on. (Don't forget the refinery for the lifetime fuel ;))

You build as much as possible parrallel in different factories and transport the parts to the ship, where they are put together. This can greatly reduce the building time.
 

Axe99

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Why not think in this way, you actually assign a number of dockyards to work parrallel on a single ship.
First a dock where the ship is actually build.
Second "dockyard" is building the guns and turrets. (A naval gun actually took longer to build then the ship, so they were ordered even before the ship was finished planing. GB order the 14'' Guns for the KGV in late '35, while the first two ships were only ordered in July '36)
Third a factory for the engine and ship's propeller. And so on. (Don't forget the refinery for the lifetime fuel ;))

You build as much as possible parrallel in different factories and transport the parts to the ship, where they are put together. This can greatly reduce the building time.

I'm not familiar with the details of putting a capital ship together, but I was under the impression that this was how it already happened - so the Iowas or KGVs would have taken considerably longer if they didn't have bits and pieces built elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it being in the game that way :). I think, though, we should be honest about what a BB built in 240 days is, and that's not historically plausible.
 
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jamesd

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I think what we hope for is that the maximum number of factories commitable to a ship is not hard coded. Limit it to say 5 a ship and suddenly it takes a minimum 720 days to build a BB.

720 days to build a modern WW2 battleship is not at all unreasonable. If the player needs to get a capital ship into service even faster, they could opt to build a smaller, weaker, earlier model of battleship, which would take less time.
 
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BunnyPoopCereal

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Do you set up a production line and build battleships until ???, or do you commission a specific number of ships? At least for capitals, I think it definitely needs to be the latter, while it's probably ok for frigates or convoys to have a "3 / month" or "2 / week" type production lines.

I'd also prefer if you couldn't just make a battleship go faster by throwing infinite factories at it (I know it's not really infinite I'm exaggerating). Like there could be a maximum number of dockyards attached to its production, to represent bottlenecks on its time. There might be techs you could unlock that allow you to put more dockyards on one ship at a time.

I reckon naval production and naval stuff will be the focus of an expansion DLC down the line.


I'm sure the limit is set by the UI lol. So you have a box that you can assign a number of factories but the number is limited by the box size of the UI lmao.
 
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Swinds

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On the by, 15 docks all working on a BB for five years each and popping out 15 ships at once is actually a lot, lot more historically plausible and appropriate than 15 docks working on a line of BBs and popping the first out in under a year. Take the KGV class - five ships laid down in 1937, five ships are operational between December 1940 and August 1942 (with three coming out in the 12 months between December 1940 and December 1941). The first ship isn't operational until WW2 has been on the go for over 12 months. Under the serial instead of parallel model, you'd have a couple of BBs done before the war started, giving the UK a leg-up navally.

I understand you completely but I am torn, I like things to like WW2 rather than a sandbox but I like the idea of building things faster...

I think that you could build 5 battleships for 5 years with 15 Shipyards but will there not be a penalty due to efficiency? 15 Shipyards take 380 days (for example) for one ship. How efficient will they be after they have launched 4? You then can change to a new model with not too much loss of efficiency??
 

GsusNSV

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I understand you completely but I am torn, I like things to like WW2 rather than a sandbox but I like the idea of building things faster...

I think that you could build 5 battleships for 5 years with 15 Shipyards but will there not be a penalty due to efficiency? 15 Shipyards take 380 days (for example) for one ship. How efficient will they be after they have launched 4? You then can change to a new model with not too much loss of efficiency??
Until now there is no efficience bar in the production screen for ships. So we (at least I) assume that dockyards automaticly work at your current max efficiency.

The short build time for ships is probably purely gamplay wise. I would guess it shall be possible for Japan to have a little comeback after Midway.
 

Swinds

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Until now there is no efficience bar in the production screen for ships. So we (at least I) assume that dockyards automaticly work at your current max efficiency.

The short build time for ships is probably purely gamplay wise. I would guess it shall be possible for Japan to have a little comeback after Midway.

Good point so I assume that you will start out building the battleships over 5 years but as you increase the efficiency of Navel builds, e.g. I was thinking selecting the company producing ships, this will decrease.

15 = 1 year
8 = 2 years - efficiency improvement
4 = 3 years - efficiency improvement

Therefore 4 Battleships build with 4 navy yards each = <3 years for 4 Battleships ???

Johan was building factories and Navy yards like they were going out of fashion but GB only had 19 to begin with. So you would never allocate 15 dockyards to build battleships or aircraft carriers anyway.
 

bigb4486

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Are we complaining just to complain here? Everyone knew this was going to be a sandbox, play the Grigsby series if you want hardcore simulation of WW2. My only concern is game balance. Like LordOfWar pointed out, it would take most, if not all, of a large nations resources to build a battleship that quickly. On top of that, many nations won't even have access to the oil needed to put all of their yards on battleship building. More-over, whats the point of having 12 battleships in 1940 if you have no screens (not to mention no planes, no tanks, no motorized infantry, etc etc) to back them up? Mass production of any sort may be a 'gamey' mechanic, but at long as its balanced I have no problem with it.
 
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Are we complaining just to complain here? Everyone knew this was going to be a sandbox, play the Grigsby series if you want hardcore simulation of WW2. My only concern is game balance. Like LordOfWar pointed out, it would take most, if not all, of a large nations resources to build a battleship that quickly. On top of that, many nations won't even have access to the oil needed to put all of their yards on battleship building. More-over, whats the point of having 12 battleships in 1940 if you have no screens (not to mention no planes, no tanks, no motorized infantry, etc etc) to back them up? Mass production of any sort may be a 'gamey' mechanic, but at long as its balanced I have no problem with it.

How about not treating every single game like it's an MMO where everything has to be dumbed down to Red vs Blue all in the name of "balance." Take 3 steps in any direction and you'll trip over a game like that, do we really need another one? Can I have a game that respects history and retains some personality and character, please?
 
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