A basic inequity in the Battle of the Atlantic (OP Edit)

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Dalwin

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I do not speak of the mechanics of sub combat vs surface fleets or of the ease with which destroyers protect the shipping lanes and slaughter subs by the score. These things are also imbalanced, but I have a different point to raise.

Based on other threads which did in depth studies and on my own observations over hundreds of hours of play, it appears that only two of the four basic types of convoys can actually be attacked and sunk (unless you wish to count empty ships heading back for another run as a fifth type.)

Troop convoys and trade convoys can be sunk. Supply convoys and those carrying resources home from overseas possessions are never attacked.

This means that with effort and time the Allies can successfully blockade Germany and end its ability to import goods. Conversely, Germany can do very little to cut Britain off from the flow of goods needed to feed her factories. British convoys bearing oil and rubber will not cease unless so many convoys have been sunk that there are not enough left to man the route.

These resource convoys should be attackable. Britain should, at least in theory, be vulnerable to a successful interdiction of Atlantic shipping. This was certainly one of Churchill's greatest fears.

Not only does the seeming invulnerability of these routes give Britain a distinct advantage it also eliminates the majority of the Reich's opportunities to find and sink shipping.

(EDIT: it turns out that these convoy types are not actually immune, simply much harder ot detect than seems reasonable. Also damage to them is fleeting and the consequences should perhaps be increased in severity.)
 
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adam_grif

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I don't think there are actually mechanics in place currently to support "carrying X oil", hence the same abstraction HoI3 had where as long as you can restock the convoys their cargo isn't lost for that aspect of the game. Probably something that gets fleshed out in patches. This effect also means that you can hilariously paradrop a bunch of airborne divisions, capture or build a port, then extremely rapidly transform them into armoured divisions.
 
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Dalwin

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I don't think there are actually mechanics in place currently to support "carrying X oil", hence the same abstraction HoI3 had where as long as you can restock the convoys their cargo isn't lost for that aspect of the game. Probably something that gets fleshed out in patches. This effect also means that you can hilariously paradrop a bunch of airborne divisions, capture or build a port, then extremely rapidly transform them into armoured divisions.
You have a point. To be honest I do not even mind that it is difficult to track the lost resources coming from colonies (though why it could not be tracked exactly in the same way as is already being done with trade I do not know.) It is not the resources themselves that are the most important thing (at first). If you are not even given the opportunity to kill the ships you will never threaten the flow of resources.

The biggest problem is that Britain has many more convoys bringing home colonial resources than they have importing goods (from America mostly). I would say that the lost opportunity of sinking those colonial resource ships reduces German opportunities to sink British convoys by 80% or more. Not only does this shipping account for the majority of their merchant fleet, it is literally spread over the entire globe and would be much more difficult to completely protect compared to the few routes buying goods from America.
 
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adam_grif

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I agree it's something that needs fixing. Not the highest priority by any means (performance optimisation, making the AI not terrible etc), but it should be on Paradox's radar.
 
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Dalwin

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I agree it's something that needs fixing. Not the highest priority by any means (performance optimisation, making the AI not terrible etc), but it should be on Paradox's radar.
I agree that I would not put this in the number one spot, probably not even in the top five, but I do think it is very important.
 
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Oddb@ll

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I very much agree with these points you've raised. The whole point of German submarine warfare was to starve Britain, sinking vital supplies and denying the industry the resources it needed. If this does not include supplies/resources from British colonies the whole gist of submarine warfare becomes moot.
 
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Phibs

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Probably another game mechanic modelled around the AI.
And insofar I doubt it'll see a fix/change anytime soon. :/
 
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Secret Master

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This means that with effort and time the Allies can successfully blockade Germany and end its ability to import goods. Conversely, Germany can do very little to cut Britain off from the flow of goods needed to feed her factories. British convoys bearing oil and rubber will not cease unless so many convoys have been sunk that there are not enough left to man the route.

I want to point out something even more insidious.

Since only troop and trade convoys can be attacked, it is hypothetically possible for Britain to conserve convoys by not moving troops over the ocean and not importing anything.

Sure, she needs oil, but in MP, I could be a total bastard as the UK, eat the efficiency penalty for no oil, and just take 100% of my merchant marine off the table for raiding. Since I control rubber, the lack of oil isn't immediately fatal. I wouldn't really do this right now, as the advantage lies with DDs. But the fact that it is possible is problematic.

There's also another weird problem with this set up for convoys. Italy and the DAK can't be cut off from their supplies unless you just seize the ports. Supply problems for Rommel? Nah. Shipping yet another 300 Panzer IVs won't be a problem.
 
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Dalwin

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I want to point out something even more insidious.

Since only troop and trade convoys can be attacked, it is hypothetically possible for Britain to conserve convoys by not moving troops over the ocean and not importing anything.

Sure, she needs oil, but in MP, I could be a total bastard as the UK, eat the efficiency penalty for no oil, and just take 100% of my merchant marine off the table for raiding. Since I control rubber, the lack of oil isn't immediately fatal. I wouldn't really do this right now, as the advantage lies with DDs. But the fact that it is possible is problematic.

There's also another weird problem with this set up for convoys. Italy and the DAK can't be cut off from their supplies unless you just seize the ports. Supply problems for Rommel? Nah. Shipping yet another 300 Panzer IVs won't be a problem.
As long as those panzers are only replacements for units already in Africa you are indeed correct. Obviously new units must risk transit.
 
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yes, I've experimented in my current mp game (playing UK), there is absolutely no way to prevent axis force to reinforce in Africa, apart from taking the naval base of course.
is this acknowledge as a bug or seen as wad ? could be interesting for 1.2 patch
 
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Dalwin

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yes, I've experimented in my current mp game (playing UK), there is absolutely no way to prevent axis force to reinforce in Africa, apart from taking the naval base of course.
is this acknowledge as a bug or seen as wad ? could be interesting for 1.2 patch
You can make it extremely expensive to actually "reinforce" Africa. It is not unusual for the RN to sink half of the units bound for Africa.

What is more or less impossible is for the fleet to harm Axis supply (including replacements). In theory the air force could have some effect on supply since strategic bombing of the region would have few targets to hit other than the ports and infrastructure. I say in theory only because I have never seen a player (definitely not the AI) use strategic bombing in North Africa.
 
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At the battle of Guam and many other battles between Amerika and Japan, The US would destroy Japan's convoys in order to starve the units and damage their merchant fleet. But now, both of those things are impossible. Also like how I need to trade with the USSR from Leningrad to Tokyo when I want aluminium rather than say just get it from vladistok.
 
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A big +1 to everything in this thread :). Very important for commerce warfare in the Pacific and Med as well.
 
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Taghmon

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I think the main reason why resource and supply convoys can't be attacked is because we have no control over routes and allocation. Besides building convoys the full transport system is automated and it would sent convoys through the hotspot till everything is burned up.
At least with troop convoys and trading we have some influence over the target.
On this ground I wouldn't recomment to make supply&resource convoys attackable but to reduce efficiency in dangerous seas. This is already done, if not enough convoys are available. Still a full blockade should take considerable fleets and not just a dozend destroyers.
 
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P3D

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At least the Axis can repair its fleet without the fear of the getting the repairing ships destroyed by port strikes. Even if they cannot use them for any proper convoy raiding.

Right?
 
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Meglok

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At the battle of Guam and many other battles between Amerika and Japan, The US would destroy Japan's convoys in order to starve the units and damage their merchant fleet. But now, both of those things are impossible. Also like how I need to trade with the USSR from Leningrad to Tokyo when I want aluminium rather than say just get it from vladistok.

This is a big issue. The convoy routing thru only one port no matter what is ridiculous. As is the automatic routing thru the English Channel on suicide runs. At least in HOI3 you could change ports around.
 
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TingJonKi

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Agreed but troop convoys need to have some escorts implanted in them and ALSO require that the enemy does not have naval superiority, you could model the escorts needed by doing what HOI3 had with "convoy escorts" also being producible which transported troops would borrow from when crossing the sea. No way Canadian troops would cross the atlantic where the Germans were sinking convoys left and right without any protection as otherwise its too easy to kill troops crossing the Atlantic and from axis powers making dumb transportation across the channel
 

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As long as those panzers are only replacements for units already in Africa you are indeed correct. Obviously new units must risk transit.

You're going to need new panzers in Rommel's divisions when I'm done with the DAK. :p

It also means that I could, hypothetically, change the division templates for the DAK. I could send cheap "2 width foot infantry divisions with no support companies" via convoys that you can intercept, but when they get there, set the template to "Mega-death 40 width heavy armor divisions with all support company slots filled and a hardness of 75%."

If you sink my troop convoys, I lose 2 width divisions. That's not too bad. But if they get there, they are now the most hardcore force Germany has in 1940.
 
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Dalwin

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You're going to need new panzers in Rommel's divisions when I'm done with the DAK. :p

It also means that I could, hypothetically, change the division templates for the DAK. I could send cheap "2 width foot infantry divisions with no support companies" via convoys that you can intercept, but when they get there, set the template to "Mega-death 40 width heavy armor divisions with all support company slots filled and a hardness of 75%."

If you sink my troop convoys, I lose 2 width divisions. That's not too bad. But if they get there, they are now the most hardcore force Germany has in 1940.
Yes I have thought of this exploit, and exploit is exactly what this is, though any such units would obviously end up being completely green and face a 25% reduction instead of the 25% bonus that many manage via training and exercises.
 

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Cutting off of Britain via complete blockade would not be historically accurate though. By early 40-41 the U-Boat threat was all but neutralized in the Atlantic and come 43, it was all over but the crying for Donitz... ;)

"The end drew steadily near for the U-boats. Everywhere that Donitz looked, his U-boat war was foundering. The Allies kept adding new escorts, developed new weapons and perfected the convoy system which easily defeated the wolf packs. Allied shipbuilding capacity continued at a rapid pace, and by this time it had become almost impossible for U-boats to keep up with the tonnage race.

Beginning June 1943, the U-boat force took another blow. In that month, the British Admiralty changed naval codes, and the German code breaking service, B-Dienst, which had been reading much of Allied traffic since February 1942 could no longer provide decrypts of Allied messages. This incalculable setback meant that BdU was deprived of valuable tactical information."
 
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