A balance feature that could give meaning back to light mechs.

[Joanna]

I just don't see why this matters in a PvE game. I really don't care how others play. First off, for those asking for increased costs, Kiva has said she's against that and she's the one designing the game - so I wouldn't expect that to change. Secondly, we're controlling just a single lance. Putting lights in a lance with assaults hardly makes sense. In fact going through the random lance generation table in my 'Mercenaries' book, lights only have a small chance of being in the same lance as a heavy, and have no chance of being in a lance with an assault.

This isn't MWO (who have it wrong) lights were never supposed to be 'balanced'. BT is simple: lights<mediums<heavies<assaults. Lights in TT are scouts/recon, period. They aren't flankers (mediums) or part of the fire lance (heavies/assaults). They lose their usefulness simply since we're not reconning very much. Watching the streams, it's going to be quite a while before we get an assault, never mind a lance of them. Sure they could put in a mission or two where speed is important, but lets face it most of us want to fight, not just run across the map.

If you want a challenging game try completing the campaign with a medium/light lance and post your achievement here, don't ask for the game to make everyone do that.

 

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If they really wanted to make light mechs great, they would just get rid of evasive charges being stripped from weapons fire. That mechanic never really made any sense to me in terms of reality. Why would shooting at an evasive Mech make it less evasive? In tabletop, fast Mechs were just evasive as hell because of their high movement modifiers, and no amount of firing on them would make them less so.

Dodging attacks from multiple sources is harder than dodging them from one. That's literally why being caught in a crossfire is a bad thing.

 

[jss78]

Lights are cheap That's supposed to be their niche, right? C-Bill cost and upkeep ought to be much less than that of heavier Mechs (which sorta reflects the difference in BattleValue in the TT). That's the best angle to tackle it, in my opinion: Use a budget lance, have lower operating expenditure, maximize profits.

I'd say it's partially cost, partially speed.

I think in a world of unlimited c-bills and availability, you'd generally go for fast, light mediums. Assassins, Phoenix Hawks, 7/11 Cicadas, and such. There's little lights can do better than these, maybe apart from Spider's 8/12/8 move.

But many good lights are fairly close, and with limited resources and availability you'd use them.

But as far as moving faster than 4/8, what you need is lights and mediums. It's then up to the game designers to give us missions that require this -- all to often it's that same "walk towards the enemy at whatever speed you have, shoot until the other team is dead".

It should be relatively easy to script missions where you need to scout an objective or reach an allied compound under attack fast. I'm not sure to what extent HBS has managed to do this -- I think I didn't see such a mission in Cohh's streams?

 

[Beez]

What the OP is proposing is a giant game mechanic change with 9 days until release. It's not gonna happen.
Moreover, it isn't necessary. There's already a mechanic in the game, that many people have seen if they paid attention, that solves this problem: a mission timer.
On a few missions, the player has been tasked with holding a base for X number of turns. That means that mission timers already exist and are incorporated into the game. All HBS needs to do is include more missions with narrow time limits...limits that only a fast light 'Mech force (or even a single 'Mech!) could accomplish.

You see the mission description "fast recon," or such and you know you need your light 'Mech.

If the devs are creative, I'm sure they can figure out other ways of forcing the player to use light 'Mechs. If not, then what we'll get is the usual race to the assaults.

Please no. Mission timers are fine for a small percentage of missions but beyond that, they will get modded out or turned off by players, just like Xcom2. That’s not the answer for this problem.

 

[Tangman]

I have to ask... What is a Steiner Scout Lance, or what is the meme? When I google it, I see 4x Atlas and fancy meme pictures. Albeit some are very funny, I don't get the meme, where its from or what its purpose is? Is it just 4 Atlases and that's it?

 

[Cyttorak001]

If they really wanted to make light mechs great, they would just get rid of evasive charges being stripped from weapons fire. That mechanic never really made any sense to me in terms of reality. Why would shooting at an evasive Mech make it less evasive? In tabletop, fast Mechs were just evasive as hell because of their high movement modifiers, and no amount of firing on them would make them less so.

The devs did that so missions would resolve faster. Otherwise, what you would get is the inevitable "chase the spider" routine that you always see in MegaMek.
On the one hand, they succeeded. OTOH, it came at the price of making light 'Mechs less survivable.

 

[Cyttorak001]

Please no. Mission timers are fine for a small percentage of missions but beyond that, they will get modded out or turned off by players, just like Xcom2. That’s not the answer for this problem.

I agree that they should be on a minority of missions. Those missions should give clear indications that speed will be a requirement.

 

[Cyttorak001]

I have to ask... What is a Steiner Scout Lance, or what is the meme? When I google it, I see 4x Atlas and fancy meme pictures. Albeit some are very funny, I don't get the meme, where its from or what its purpose is? Is it just 4 Atlases and that's it?

Steiner is known for being an economic powerhouse, while having incompetent officers. As a result, they just throw expensive firepower at every problem.
Hence, Steiner scout lance.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

A lot of this comes from streams, but I think the concern comes from what seems to be a lack of variety in missions where not having 4 brawlers/damage dealers/damage sponges seems like an auto-loss. If after 2.5 skulls you're dealing with primarily heavies + assaults in fairly narrow confines, you don't really have an opportunity to see lights shine.

Now - that being said, some of that might come from the streamers themselves (especially sidestrafe). He didn't seem to value mobility and often didn't really use the battlefield to his advantage - instead just marching in and slugging it out with whatever came through. I don't know if other streamers showed enough to really get an idea of what else was possible with a more mixed loadout.

From a personal perspective, I'm looking forward to an ace pilot Firestarter as either an overheat boat or a MG/injury boat. But I don't yet know how viable that is once the enemy starts coming with heavy mechs.

Heavier, more armoured 'Mechs would make that strategy more viable.

It's tough to down a 'Mech through pilot injuries when you accidentally tear through their CT first, but you can plink at an Atlas with MGs all day and not get through their armour, which means you'll likely kill the pilot through injuries well before you get internal. Plus, the lower initiative and movement speed of Heavy and Assault 'Mechs guarantees your ability to play hit-and-run in near complete safety (depending on the topography), the only risk being Sensor Lock and indirectly fired LRMs.

 

[Delta Assault]

I have to ask... What is a Steiner Scout Lance, or what is the meme? When I google it, I see 4x Atlas and fancy meme pictures. Albeit some are very funny, I don't get the meme, where its from or what its purpose is? Is it just 4 Atlases and that's it?

Steiner historically likes heavier Mechs. That's the joke.

Other factions like the Ghost Bears are also known for this tendency.

 

[Jamey]

I’m not convinced that the current streamers who have played a lot are good for judging the utility of speed. Cohh was using a Panther as his only light. SideStrafe (as far as I have gotten) was using almost all 4/6 mechs and stripped jump jets.

Both of them have gotten into trouble in battles where they were attacked from multiple directions and speed would have helped them focus down one group before the other could fully engage.

Plus, none of the streamers I have seen have been scouting and using long range fire.

My one concern about speed mechs from the streams that I have seen is that the assymetry in unit sizes greatly disadvantages evasion, which is what keeps speed mechs alive. The AI seems to almost always have at least one sensor lock. Also, in an 8 on 4 you can strip 6 evasion pips (which I think is around the cap available with high skill) with just attacks and get two full volleys without evasion. That will crump any light mech.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

I’m not saying that lights and mediums will be everywhere, but you can use them to push enemies into later phases or attack early so your lance can get multiple called shots on knocked down enemies with each mech. Using vigilance and master tactician can make this happen even if you use assaults, but you may want lights and mediums to help set it up.

If you want to roll in with heavies and assaults to trade fire instead, then yea lights and mediums will be less interesting.

 

[Thalynos]

I just don't see why this matters in a PvE game. I really don't care how others play.

This matters because thoughtful limitations or drawbacks spur engaging decision making. For example, if heat was removed as a concern then perhaps we'd just fill mechs with nothing but PPCs and that would remove the ability to customize mechs because then anything not a PPC is inherently sub optimal. (This is just an analogy)

Suggestions about associating operational costs with mech mass come from realizing that there is no decision making going on; everything is simply a matter of take your biggest mechs. If there are factors that might grant an incentive to use lighter mechs, then you are making a decision based on the situation to determine if it is worth it. Those sorts of decisions are all over the place in this game, so it is certainly not unprecedented.

In fact going through the random lance generation table in my 'Mercenaries' book, lights only have a small chance of being in the same lance as a heavy, and have no chance of being in a lance with an assault.

This seems contradictory to the sarna definition of a standard lance. I'm not saying your source is wrong, I'm just calling out the contradiction between sources.

Lance:

The lance is the smallest organizational unit, equivalent to an infantry platoon. A 'Mech lance consists of four separate BattleMechs (although occasionally a "light lance" consists of only three 'Mechs) and are categorized based upon the average weight of the 'Mechs that comprise it (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault). A lance commander is usually either a non-commissioned officer (NCO) or a low grade officer (lieutenant or equivalent). Lance commanders are directly engaged in combat operations and are responsible for the 'Mechs under their command.

A Standard Lance consists of one light, one medium, and two heavy BattleMechs.[1]

In addition to four 'Mech pilots, there are normally four to six additional support personnel, making a lance roughly ten individuals.

 

[lordpepper]

Haven't read through all posts, but I think the easiest way to make lights and mediums interesting mechs in the mid and late game would be to adjust maintenance cost for the mechs.

Heck, fielding a locust should come cheaper than running a jaegermech or an Atlas...

 

[Zugs]

I was under the impression the mission "modified" it mechs by the tonnage you drop. Something to do with the skulls or some such? Also there is something that keeps you from dropping all heavy and assualt mechs.... money.

 

[Tnarien]

Folks are exquisitely underestimating what one can do from the side arc with an appropriately kitted Light or Medium unit. Not to mention the options it provides for initiative manipulating shenanigans.

 

[Thalynos]

I was under the impression the mission "modified" it mechs by the tonnage you drop. Something to do with the skulls or some such? Also there is something that keeps you from dropping all heavy and assualt mechs.... money.

I have seen no indication that the enemies encountered in missions has anything to do with your drop weight.

There is presently no cost associated with deploying mechs, and the cost for keeping mechs ready for use is uniform @ 6000 cbills per mech.

There is presently no incentive to use lighter mechs. If you have an Orion, it is a functional upgrade to a centurion; there is no reason to bring a centurion if you have an Orion. (they have the same speed and the Orion has more hard points.)

Perhaps repair costs are impacted by weight but if you simply bring larger mechs, you may not receive any internal damage, so you are further encouraged to bring the best you have at all times.

** To be clear, I'm not advocating for medium or light mechs to be as capable combatants as heavy or assault mechs. The battletech universe makes it clear that an Atlas is simply a more effective weapon than a centurion. The battletech universe explicitly tells us at various times that Assault mechs are cost prohibitive and the reason that other mechs exist concurrently with assault mechs is that lighter mechs are progressively more cost effective. Presently, this is not the case in game and I am advocating for gameplay to match setting in this way.

Please see my first post in this thread for details.

 

[Spartakus]

I’m not convinced that the current streamers who have played a lot are good for judging the utility of speed. Cohh was using a Panther as his only light. SideStrafe (as far as I have gotten) was using almost all 4/6 mechs and stripped jump jets.

Both of them have gotten into trouble in battles where they were attacked from multiple directions and speed would have helped them focus down one group before the other could fully engage.

Plus, none of the streamers I have seen have been scouting and using long range fire.

My one concern about speed mechs from the streams that I have seen is that the assymetry in unit sizes greatly disadvantages evasion, which is what keeps speed mechs alive. The AI seems to almost always have at least one sensor lock. Also, in an 8 on 4 you can strip 6 evasion pips (which I think is around the cap available with hig skill) with just attacks and get two full volleys without evasion. That will crimp any light mech.

I could not have said it any better. What is it with people thinking lights are useless recently. In the Beta I have the most time focused light and mediums early. When they are gone the heavies and assaults are easy pickings since nothing can watch their backside anymore.
I do agree that they need their evasion charges badly though. Couple vehicles with sensor lock or picking single ECs off could really cost me some Jenners or Firestarters.

 

[Tangman]

I mean, if you had every mech 4x in the game. Would you really bring a Jenner, Firestarter, Hunchback and Panther? Or would you bring in a bit heavier weaponry? I mean, I'm by no means a Battle Tech expert, but bigger is usually better. You can still put sensor locks on heavy mechs too, its not explicit to sub 40tons.

I like LRM boats, I plan to use LRM Boats. I plan to make a King Crab LRM boat eventually, why? Simply because bigger is better. I got these stops on the way. Maybe it starts with a Commando, then it becomes a Centurion, then it becomes a Trebuchet, or maybe Stalker, but the goal is King Crab. Why? Well simply cos it can carry a metric ton of missiles to destroy you with. Ontop of other fancy tools that a Commando can't, to open up its tools for combat.

 

[Spartakus]

I feel like this is another AI issue. The AI sucks at keeping lights alive; so every streamer unfamiliar with the mechanics dismisses them as useless. And also doesn't get any ideas about how to use lights properly.

If we had seen any AI Jenner doing a double tap into the back of a streamers mech (preferably Hunchbacks) we would not have this discussion. Rather a Cohh with wide eyes saying: "Wow! That was mean. I wanna do this too!"
Poor Jenner wouldn't even need to survive that maneuver.