A balance feature that could give meaning back to light mechs.
- Thread starter Panpiper
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Terms of Mercenary contract could have limitations or potential side-penalties based on story context.
Or potential benefits if some restrictions are fulfilled.
For example:
Infiltration(bonus to offensive mission) - encampment is expecting reinforcements of <mechtype> with lighter escorts. fulfilling would allow to approach target without occurring hostilities.
Alert State(battle penalty) - Going over certain tonnage limit would put enemies on guard or even make them call for extra reinforcements. Also could affect enemies behaviour to group up against overwhelming force
No Escalation(term of contract) - It is critical for employee to avoid escalation of hostilities and require to not drop most than certain tonnage. It could be also used in Trap contract as pirates would prefer to bring weak enough party to handle.
Escape attempt(assassination contract) - if drop tonnage is too high it would be obvious for 'notable target' to try to escape forcing heavy lance to pursure it more carelessly or rick not fulfilling contract.
Also concept of 5 mechs and limited drop tonnage (250-300 tons) as limitation of dropship would pose some limitation what to bring in.
Or potential benefits if some restrictions are fulfilled.
For example:
Infiltration(bonus to offensive mission) - encampment is expecting reinforcements of <mechtype> with lighter escorts. fulfilling would allow to approach target without occurring hostilities.
Alert State(battle penalty) - Going over certain tonnage limit would put enemies on guard or even make them call for extra reinforcements. Also could affect enemies behaviour to group up against overwhelming force
No Escalation(term of contract) - It is critical for employee to avoid escalation of hostilities and require to not drop most than certain tonnage. It could be also used in Trap contract as pirates would prefer to bring weak enough party to handle.
Escape attempt(assassination contract) - if drop tonnage is too high it would be obvious for 'notable target' to try to escape forcing heavy lance to pursure it more carelessly or rick not fulfilling contract.
Also concept of 5 mechs and limited drop tonnage (250-300 tons) as limitation of dropship would pose some limitation what to bring in.
1. Any mech using slock is giving up firing so the real question is are they giving up shots or not? If someone uses a heavy brawler with slock and that heavynhas no long range weapons that could be very effective. Either they are slocking because they arent in range, or they are brawling and by having los and range are effectively lighting up a target for others.
2. I used to play DnD and thought your balanced party pretty amusing. I actually played a game where the "scout" position was filled by a fighter who specced out as an archer. Was he good at the whole move silently? No. Could he disarm traps like a rogue? No. But he sure could kill most any basic guard by catching them flat footed and just dropping them with one arrow. Ive also played a campaign where the entire party were clerics and monks of different beliefs travelling together to a big gathering. Was that party balanced? Nope, but it sure was effective in most combat situations.
All Im trying to say is everyone can find a fun way to play content if they try. The rub is if something seems like it should work one way and clearly fails. Currently I think lights are very viable in skirmish, but leave a bit to be desired in the campaign. I think fast mediums will likely take the place of lights in the fast scout role in the campaign if only because those lights are tin foil armor and late game salvos will tear them up pretty quick. That said Im sure a few people will complete the entire campaign using a light on every story mission, but I suspect their failure rate will be relatively high. What would truly surprise me is if someone was able to make it through the campaign using a light every mission without suffering a death to the light pilot at some point. Anyway good luck and I hope you have as much as fun I think I will have with this game,
I think they have done an admirable job of making lights viable in skirmish due to constraints on what you can bring.
What I would like to see is for a more concerted effort to have at least some missions in the campaign where fast mobile mechs are a necessity rather than a luxury. This has been a problem with all the battletech/mechwarrior games because all things being equal most objectives require your mechs to take some heavy hits and deal out some heavy damage in late game content. Considering this is a bit of a sandbox game with procedurally generated missions it should be possible to develop an entire line of missions that are ideal for the fast mobile game and notate them as such so theose playing the more traditional slower battle lances wont make the mistake of taking them with the wrong mech lance.
I remember some of the older lore listed a typical mech company as having a command lance, battle lance, and scout lance. Most pc content seems geared to the battle lance or command lance lineups and it would just be nice to see some real content geared towards scout lances.
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The Blackack is what you start with. That's commented on it. I know it's a 4/6/4 mech with decent armament, ok punch and the AC2's are TT AC5's with AC2 range. I still don't see an issue keeping my distance given what I've seen of the AI in the streams. There's plenty of room to maneuver and the AI generally doesn't charge into point blank range.
I will probably be extending LoS ranges a bit because I'm not fond of the medium laser engagement ranges. In addition to allowing me to drill AI mechs at range, it will also extend the AI units reach and will hopefully allow them to actually engage my units normally. I've seen the AI use sensor lock a handful of times, but it still relies heavily on spotters which doesn't seem much different than in the beta save for the fact they seem to operate quite a bit better as a whole.
If that triggers groups of them, so be it. I will have to rely on LoS blockers and terrain for cover as you would in Table Top. I'm very happy much of the game is easily moddable.
No issue with keeping the distance ofc. I plan on trying something similar as well. Only that heavier mechs can do it better so this isn't a role only a Blackjack can fulfill. The most direct upgrade would be a jagermech JM6-S with 4 ballistic slots i guess, 4 AC\2's should be pretty decent.
Of course. I had actually been considering a build like that. I was even mulling over something extreme like a king crab with 5-6 AC2s ! Just park it on a mountain top and rain headshots all day
The KGC-0000, the only KGC variant in BATTLETECH, has 2 Ballistic hardpoints.Of course. I had actually been considering a build like that. I was even mulling over something extreme like a king crab with 5-6 AC2s ! Just park it on a mountain top and rain headshots all day
The only 'Mech that can boat ballistics is the JM6-S - with 4 hardpoints, two in each arm - which has 39 tons of space.
4xAC2 weigh 24 tons, leaving 15 tons for ammo, HS, armor, and possibly backup weapons and JJs.
Priority #1 is ammo. One ammo bins gives you 25 shots. I wouldn't want to go into battle with anything less than 3 tons of ammo for 75 shots, because I'll be firing 4 in every round of combat, and in a protracted battle I still might run dry. That leaves 12 tons for HS, armor, and backup weapons.
AC2s build 5 heat each. The engine can sink 30, which makes additional HS unnecessary. So, 12 tons for armor and backup weapons.
10 tons of armor is nothing to sneeze at, and would be what I think is the minimum for this build, so let's start there and come back at the end. With 2 tons left to use, it's all up to personal preference at this point.
If you love JJs, they're going to cost you 1 ton per; for traversing elevation to pick good sniping perches - and with 4xAC2s, that's worth serious consideration - then 1xJJ would be a good investment, but 2 would provide you so little additional functionality it wouldn't be worth it. Round out with either 1 more ton of armor, or 2xSLs just in case something gets within your minimum range.
Or perhaps you like the extra punch of MLs. 2xML and 4xAC2s would build 40 heat on a 150pt alpha strike, which is barely worth a mention and easily manageable. If you want to play as a 2nd line skirmisher then you could use those MLs to great effect, and they would also keep you more useful in the fight if you happen to run out of ammo.
4xAC5s would weigh 32 tons, leaving you 7 tons for armor, ammo, backup weapons and JJs. You'd need at least 3 tons of ammo, leaving 4 tons for armor. With 3 different ammo bins, and without the safety that the extreme range of AC2s provides you, I don't think you could make this viable. 3xAC5s, on the other hand would be.
3xAC5s would weigh 24 tons, same as the 4xAC2 build. Everything I posted above would apply equally here, with a few caveats. Running 2xML and 3xAC5s would build 50 heat on an alpha strike instead of 40, and you wouldn't cool at all when firing 3xAC5s, so your max DPS isn't sustainable for as many rounds; however, your alpha strike is 185pts. So, if you like burst damage and don't mind spending a turn to cool down, you might prefer 3xAC5s over 4xAC2s.
Eh, that sucks. Though i guess in this game boating is not as mandatory as in MWO so pairing autocannons with apropriate energy weapons could work too.
I agree, however, we can always mod in more hard points
The other thing I will likely mod back in is Table Top Ammunition values. More shots and more ammo explosions!
We need more reasons for using the Lights. Along the lines of what greater minds than mine have said:
- Decrease maintenance costs on Lights and increase on Assaults.
- Add more missions categories that focus on a need for speed to beat a timer.
- Maybe have a goal of 2 mechs making it to a target location. While our other 2 mechs would act as blockers trying to prevent the OpFor from taking the 2 friendly sprinters down. Sort of capture the flag-esque - similar to the timer idea.
- They could also force a limit on the overall or individual tonnage through other means. Ex:
- Individual: Fighting on a thin ice shelf, nothing over 45 tons. Could also increase risk of self damage when using JumpJets here
- Overall: Hard limit due to wanting to restrict damage in a city or wild preserve
- Overall or Individual: Limit due to alternate transport (maybe we are ferried there by a Gazelle instead of a Leopard and it doesn't have bays for anything but Lights/Mediums or the DropShip we are being inserted by has limited space)
- Individual: Hot Drop or Drop Pod insertion, limiting us to mechs with JumpJets or mechs under a certain tonnage for the drop.
- Have a purely recon mission, something that has literal overwhelming enemy firepower and will require us to get in and get out. Stack the fight to be almost impossible odds. Heck, just have Reinforcements keep appearing along with LRM carriers supporting them
- Could also split the team into 3 pairs. Then 1 pair is chosen randomly. (this would be a neat feature, where you have to pre pick more than 1 team, then a random team is the one that gets ambushed, while rest of your team becomes reinforcements)
Honestly, I cannot agree with most people saying there need to be even more reasons to field light mechs. HBS has given them plenty of advantages already and good knows we don't need a bunch of linearly scripted side missions to force players into taking light mechs which is what the last post looks like.
Light mechs have always had their limitations, those being max Armor and weaponry. If anything comes of additional tweaks to lights it should be in the end of the pilots thetselves, as in a mech specialization that gives a light pilot one more Chevron of evasion, perhaps an Additional movement point and or one additional heat sinks worth of efficiency. Beyond that, lights are for new the way they are.
The more they are tailored now, the worse it will be when they're rocking XL engines moving 10/15+. I'm wondering when / if we will see the Hermes in this game. Move of 9/14, basically a pure scout (aside from the slower ostscout). The mongoose would be cool to see as well.
It all comes down to playstyle and preference. Use what you want to use.
Light mechs have always had their limitations, those being max Armor and weaponry. If anything comes of additional tweaks to lights it should be in the end of the pilots thetselves, as in a mech specialization that gives a light pilot one more Chevron of evasion, perhaps an Additional movement point and or one additional heat sinks worth of efficiency. Beyond that, lights are for new the way they are.
The more they are tailored now, the worse it will be when they're rocking XL engines moving 10/15+. I'm wondering when / if we will see the Hermes in this game. Move of 9/14, basically a pure scout (aside from the slower ostscout). The mongoose would be cool to see as well.
It all comes down to playstyle and preference. Use what you want to use.
We need more reasons for using the Lights. Along the lines of what greater minds than mine have said:
- Decrease maintenance costs on Lights and increase on Assaults.
- Add more missions categories that focus on a need for speed to beat a timer.
- ...
- They could also force a limit on the overall or individual tonnage through other means. Ex:
- Individual: Fighting on a thin ice shelf, nothing over 45 tons. Could also increase risk of self damage when using JumpJets here
- Overall: Hard limit due to wanting to restrict damage in a city or wild preserve
- Overall or Individual: Limit due to alternate transport (maybe we are ferried there by a Gazelle instead of a Leopard and it doesn't have bays for anything but Lights/Mediums or the DropShip we are being inserted by has limited space)
- Individual: Hot Drop or Drop Pod insertion, limiting us to mechs with JumpJets or mechs under a certain tonnage for the drop.
- Have a purely recon mission, something that has literal overwhelming enemy firepower and will require us to get in and get out. Stack the fight to be almost impossible odds. Heck, just have Reinforcements keep appearing along with LRM carriers supporting them
- ...
I'm not sure #1 is a reason to use lights so much as it would focus you on doing missions that were lucrative enough to support your forces. Totally "realistic" but not necessarily a "reason" to use lights.
#2 and #5 would be complimentary ... you have X rounds to visit these Y waypoints oh and by the way, you need to survive that military base teaming with vehicles and turrets right there at waypoint Z in the middle.
#4, and specifically the biome aspect, is AWESOME. In success, maybe buildings could be rated differently so a Firestarter may be able to stand on top of them, but a Thunderbolt would destroy it if it tried.
I cannot lie, I do like point 4.
I do know that Mitch utilizes light mechs for grab and go missions where he literally just grabs the goods and bolts. This is yet another example of a use in the current game for light mechs. Where speed and mobility are all that is required to complete a mission successfully.
Lights already have a place in the game,you simply have to be open and willing to see the possibilities.
Absolutely. To be clear, I think lights and mediums have their place in the game already and don't "need" more things for them to make them useful. I just think that #2, #4, and #5 are awesome ideas that would add flavor and variety to the game.
And #1 is just another bit of gritty, crunchy realism that some people like and I'm not opposed to it.
In success, I hope all of them become official options and not something that needs to be modded in by individual players.
I don't get where people think light mechs are ever obsolete. With a serious advantage in initiative (especially if you've got a pilot with master tactician), the ability to get high amounts of evasion from just walking, and an automatic -2 to hit due to size. It's very difficult to hit a properly played light mech. Have a pilot with sensor lock.? You've now got a spotter for your heavier mechs that's also capable of reducing/removing evasive from bigger mechs. Have a light mech with flamers and master tact? You've got a mech that can actually jump in, flame up anything to overheating, and then get out of harms way while your heavy gunners take that shut down mech apart with called shots to maximize salvage. The only way light mechs aren't viable, is if you don't play them light light mechs. Lights aren't supposed to be brawlers and run right up to heavy or assault class mechs to exchange blows. They're meant to get in and out as fast as possible for the purpose of minimizing exposure and use in recon.
Fair enough point on #1, though it would certainly help in the early game when you are trying to stretch your c-bills
To be honest, the opposite spectrum (making the Assaults cost more) may also help with the end game economy.True on 2 & 5 as well, though all of the ideas could be somewhat worked into each other, which would allow for various blendings - now we just need some sort of 'Mech Mission Barista
Fantastic point on #4 - I recall back in CityTech days fearing bursting through a building with a Heavy 'Mech and belatedly discovering it had a multistory basement underneath. Getting your Victor's head kicked in by an UrbanMech is embarassing...
Lol, that guy you were replying is just theory crafting. By mid game, 5 evasion means nothing and an AC5/10/PPC hit or two would instantly gimp his light mech, not to mention the 70t worth of weapon and armor he purposely left on the dropship.
Also, AC2? Really? Against half armored pirates maybe but fresh Directorate heavies? lol
Yeah lol @ people that were arguing that lights and mediums are fine even though it was obvious from the streams that they become obsolete as soon as you get heavies and assaults.
Tbh they are even more usless than i thought because AI doesn't know how use initiative and heavies & assaults can get 6 evasion pips on sprint or 5 evasion pips on jump with high enough piloting skill.
Tbh they are even more usless than i thought because AI doesn't know how use initiative and heavies & assaults can get 6 evasion pips on sprint or 5 evasion pips on jump with high enough piloting skill.