A balance feature that could give meaning back to light mechs.

[Kereminde]

I will postpone final judgement, but I really hope there will be more uses for lights than we have seen so far.
Missions where speed is essential for example and an assault would simply be too slow.
E-War might also have a significant impact. I hope not all classes can mount the tech, which would give lights a distinct role.

E-War isn't in yet, but you can see @HBS_Eck in his streams continuing to show off his skill with Lights and showing the Wolverine getting brutalized along the way. That 'JR7-F' was a performance piece for what I keep saying - used well, the thing is a heck of a closer. And you should always. Be. Closing.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I will postpone final judgement, but I really hope there will be more uses for lights than we have seen so far.
Missions where speed is essential for example and an assault would simply be too slow.
E-War might also have a significant impact. I hope not all classes can mount the tech, which would give lights a distinct role.

I've always been a fan of light mechs and there are several things that have been translated over into this game that people might not be aware of. Light Mechs are a bit harder to hit, they have a difficulty to be hit enhancement, something like 5-10% which is significant. They react faster on initiative and can be reserved down to act twice, once at the end of the initiative and then immediately at the beginning of the next initiative. Allowing them to hit and fade. I've always preferred Lights with a bit of armor over speed. Something like the Wolfhound is what I've enjoyed fielding. However, Eck was rocking a Jenner with 4 Medium Lasers and Maximum Armor factor. A mech that was moving 7/11/7 with maximum flexibility, effective for finishing mechs, spotting and as an effective sensor locking scout.

There is nothing that will mandate the use of a Light Mech in the Single Player game, save for missions that reward you for speed. In multi-player it comes down to balancing your drop costs and some of the most effective builds have 1-2 Light mechs in them. Though, in MP it typically becomes a game of "kill the scout" which was one of the things I have been vocal about.

It's pretty hard to validate a light mech beyond what they've already done to validate them. There's nothing special about Light Mechs vs a Medium mech save for the fact you can get away with moving them faster with less engine investment. Their Jump Jets are a bit lighter, but they also carry less armor and weaponry. I've always liked light mechs, though they aren't for everyone. Say you build up your ultimate MP death lance and you only have room to stuff a light mech in the last slot, so be it. It's still a mech, you just have to know how to use it. It's not something that you're going to send into point blank range with an Atlas, Hunchback or whatever alone. But it is something you can use to finish a mech, spot for you, annoy an opponent and even flank with. If you're rocking an FS9 you can hang that mech back, and jump it in once your opponent is running hot, literally cooking their mech, ammo and possibly pilot to death. I've seen it done, and its damned effective.

 

[Whiskiz]

I'd be surprised if this hasn't been mentioned deeper in the thread, but it hasn't cropped up in several pages...

Light / Medium mech + Sensor Lock ==> Sensor Lock for days...
- paired with Master Tactician for the initiative bonus and you can either reserve and double move or always be moving first.
- paired with Ace Pilot and you can SL and then move (unless they changed that) or (Mod Edit: Language)

Paired with any 2x LRM mech, you have stability damage for days (especially when you get +stab LRMs). LRMs have a max range beyond visual range.
Paired with a sniper on a ridgeline, you are giving that sniper LoS to mechs beyond their normal sight range. AC2s have a max range well beyond visual range.

Light mechs need to move, find targets at the edge of their sensor range, sensor lock them, and let the rest of your lance pummel them from range.
Mediums go from being front-line in early missions to being snipers / support in late game.

People are too caught up on the gimmicks you can do with lights, instead of just how little they mean in the bigger context of things - mid to late against waves of heavies assaults and death vehicles.

Sensor locking is only good until engagement. Id rather be sensor locking with another heavy/assault for that reason.

Double moving is great, not so when you're only packing light/medium armament vs the afore mentioned waves of heavies assaults and death vehicles.

2x (the smallest LRMS you can find) tickling the enemy just for stab damage, instead of another tank with long range death or up close annihilation of a heavy/assault

As mentioned previously - in a perfect world you can keep your enemies at the edge of sensor range all day, but that just won't be the case. Once you engage, you're essentially almost a full mech down in firepower and armor.

No matter how you look at it, keeping a light/medium mid - late single player is just suboptimal - the game itself is not designed with that in mind (besides rare gimmicky missions)

People are so caught up on the fantasy of mediums lights, that currently you don't realize just how much of a major sacrifice it will be using them mid - late game in the majority of missions.

Which is kinda sad to think about, but it is the situation.

I can already tell most that plan on keeping them will replace for heavy/assault once they see how much they're disadvantaging themselves, once they see the lower lance rating and how tough missions are while voluntarily opting into less armor and weapons to try and maintain a reason for even having lights and mediums in the game - after early game single player.

 

[Jack Ryan]

People are too caught up on the gimmicks you can do with lights, instead of just how little they mean in the bigger context of things - mid to late against waves of heavies assaults and death vehicles.

Sensor locking is only good until engagement. Id rather be sensor locking with another heavy/assault for that reason.

Double moving is great, not so when you're only packing light/medium armament vs the afore mentioned waves of heavies assaults and death vehicles.

2x (the smallest LRMS you can find) tickling the enemy just for stab damage, instead of another tank with long range death or up close annihilation of a heavy/assault

As mentioned previously - in a perfect world you can keep your enemies at the edge of sensor range all day, but that just won't be the case. Once you engage, you're essentially almost a full mech down in firepower and armor.

No matter how you look at it, keeping a light/medium mid - late single player is just suboptimal - the game itself is not designed with that in mind (besides rare gimmicky missions)

People are so caught up on the fantasy of mediums lights, that currently you don't realize just how much of a major sacrifice it will be using them mid - late game in the majority of missions.

Which is kinda sad to think about, but real.

I can already tell most that plan on keeping them will replace for heavy/assault once they see how much they're disadvantaging themselves, once they see the lower lance rating and how tough missions are while voluntarily opting into less armor and weapons to try and maintain a reason for even having lights and mediums in the game after early game single player.

It's all about choice of play style and you clearly just want a slug fest at point blank ranges. That's cool, I'm planning on remaining highly mobile and destroying the AI utterly with finesse. The light mech will never be detrimental to my tactics.

 

[Kereminde]

Well it's nice to be insulted for trying to talk reasonably about this. I'm not the one trying to make Lights and Mediums into something they're not supposed to be, here. They're not supposed to . . . ever . . . be capable of tanking that sort of attention. They're meant to be scouts, skirmishers, backstabbers, annoyances, what-have-you. They're not supposed to be capable of walking up to an Assault 'Mech and tearing chunks out of it.

Furthermore, trying to use game mechanics to force players into taking them just leeches fun right out of a game. There's literally only one reason to push that on players late-game, and that's to punish them for up-armoring. Which they're being punished for enough by taking walking targets.

 

[Hippy]

Right now, there is nothing to stop you from pretty much always fielding a team of heavy and assault mechs. Virtually all heavies can have a 4/6/4 movement and so can several assault mechs. 4/6/4 is sufficient movement for virtually all scenarios. Other than as easy cannon fodder and very early missions for the player, light mechs and ultimately even medium mechs, will quickly lose their luster. The initiative advantage alone is not worth the sacrifice in firepower and armor.

Suppose however that the experience gained by your mechwarriors was affected by the relative weight of your own lance versus that of the opposition. If you stood to make say twice as much experience bringing a lance of mediums to a mission, or a heavy lance but with a light scout or whatever, than you would if you went for the heaviest you could, I expect many players would take another look at how they could instead be using the smaller mechs.

This could be accomplished with a quite simple ratio comparison, the weight of what the enemy brings (half weight for vehicles), over the weight of what you bring to the fight. Add an additional factor such as the difficulty of the mission (1-10) over five. These ratios are multiplied with the standard XP reward and that's what your pilots get.

The less weight you bring to the fight, the more experience your pilots earn. Bring 'too much' weight, and you will significantly slow down the experience gain of your pilots. There is still no artificial mechanic 'forcing' you to bring less, you can bring what you want. However a player up to the challenge could gain greater reward by deliberately bringing less than they otherwise could.

From what I have seen, there is a drop limit in the campaign. This is what is stopping you from doing exactly what you are describing. As for the skirmish side of the game, the beta testing had C-Bil limits that made it hard to field super heavy lances unless you turned the limit off entirely. Though this and the solo campaign can be changed prior to launch as we have not reached that stage yet.

 

[Exemplar Voss]

From what I have seen, there is a drop limit in the campaign.

No there isn't*. There is a drop rating, so players can tell if their lance setup matches the difficulty of the mission (ie, if they're taking too many lights).

*well, Ok there is. 400 tons, just due to the number of mechs (4) and maximum weight of mechs (100)

 

[mjbroekman]

Sensor locking is only good until engagement. Id rather be sensor locking with another heavy/assault for that reason.

To each their own, but sensor locking with a heavy or assault is a waste of all the weapons on the heavy or assault since you can't sensor lock and fire in the same turn.

Double moving is great, not so when you're only packing light/medium armament vs the afore mentioned waves of heavies assaults and death vehicles.

Again, you missed part of the point I was making. Your scout mech should be keeping the enemy at the edge of sensor range, which is much much further than visual range. Doing so will help keep them from being engaged.

2x (the smallest LRMS you can find) tickling the enemy just for stab damage, instead of another tank with long range death or up close annihilation of a heavy/assault

By "2x LRM" I was referring to at least 2 missile hardpoints loaded with LRMs, not "the smallest LRMs" (which are LRM-5s). 2x LRM20 (with +stab damage) will end up putting most heavy and assault mechs into 'Unsteady'.

As mentioned previously - in a perfect world you can keep your enemies at the edge of sensor range all day, but that just won't be the case. Once you engage, you're essentially almost a full mech down in firepower and armor.

With sensor lock removing evasion chevrons / pips, cancelling out 'Evasive' states, and granting extreme range LoS, I don't think you're going to miss much, especially when paired with complementary mechs such as long range snipers or LRM boats. Sidestrafe showed exactly how devastating LRMs are when used for stability damage, and paired with SRMs, great at knocking opponents down and killing the meat while saving the metal.

But hey, it's okay that you don't think light mechs are useful. I think you're missing a fun and interesting aspect of the game, but that's your choice.

No matter how you look at it, keeping a light/medium mid - late single player is just suboptimal - the game itself is not designed with that in mind (besides rare gimmicky missions)
People are so caught up on the fantasy of mediums lights, that currently you don't realize just how much of a major sacrifice it will be using them mid - late game in the majority of missions.

One man's gimmick is another's formula for success. There is nothing gimmicky about using lights and mediums well. Some people see being successful with under-tonnage mechs to be a mark of skill.

Indeed. People are caught up on the fantasy that mediums and lights don't have a place in the game, that they don't consider how to use those mechs properly in the context of a lance. But that's okay. The great thing about BattleTech is that you can play it the way you like to play. If you want to stomp around with a Steiner Scout Lance and use your Atlases to curb stomp everything in sight, go for it. But don't tell other people that certain mechs are useless or not viable just because they don't fit into your play style.

I can already tell most that plan on keeping them will replace for heavy/assault once they see how much they're disadvantaging themselves, once they see the lower lance rating and how tough missions are while voluntarily opting into less armor and weapons to try and maintain a reason for even having lights and mediums in the game after early game single player.

I can't even. Wow. So, you're complaining about mechs in the game being useless because you think the game will be too hard to play if you use them instead of the heavier mechs...By the way, I don't think anyone suggested that you take a full lance of lights into combat against heavies and assaults. The one reference was a joking reference to using a lance of Urbies (which are the most OP mechs in the game). A "balanced" lance is the same as a balanced party in D&D. You have a scout (rogue / light), a tank (assault / fighter) and two supports (cleric / mage / heavy / medium) or a scout (rogue), two tanks (fighter / paladin), and one support (cleric / mage). You don't waste an assault or heavy on the scouting role. That's the job for a light or medium. The other three mechs can be whatever is appropriate for the mission. Sometimes that will be 3 assault mechs, sometimes it will be non-assault mechs. The Jenner is a perfect example of a highly mobile scout. And, if you allocate tonnage well, it can take quite a few hits while still being a scout or backstabbing strike.

But hey, I see that you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on how to play the game...and that's OKAY. I hope you have fun playing. I know I will.

 

[Hippy]

No there isn't*. There is a drop rating, so players can tell if their lance setup matches the difficulty of the mission (ie, if they're taking too many lights).

*well, Ok there is. 400 tons, just due to the number of mechs (4) and maximum weight of mechs (100)

I'm pretty sure I have seen it in One of the pre release streams. And know I have heard talk as to why anyone would limit themselves like this as it felt kike artificial restriction to the player.

If I can get the attention of a streamer pre release I will ask them to look for it on the mission launch screen.

If I'm wrong I am wrong. But just remember some missions will require speed over firepower. I do recall Mitch Gittleman mentioning, that Jordan Weizman has a weaponless Spider Mech with max armour for specific missions where speed is called for.

 

[Hasler]

I'm pretty sure I have seen it in One of the pre release streams. And know I have heard talk as to why anyone would limit themselves like this as it felt kike artificial restriction to the player.

If I can get the attention of a streamer pre release I will ask them to look for it on the mission launch screen.

If I'm wrong I am wrong. But just remember some missions will require speed over firepower. I do recall Mitch Gittleman mentioning, that Jordan Weizman has a weaponless Spider Mech with max armour for specific missions where speed is called for.

Eck mentioned the spider in his stream. It is pretty much only useful for extraction missions. There will be no drop limit in SP. There is another huge thread on this topic.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I'm pretty sure I have seen it in One of the pre release streams. And know I have heard talk as to why anyone would limit themselves like this as it felt kike artificial restriction to the player.

If I can get the attention of a streamer pre release I will ask them to look for it on the mission launch screen.

If I'm wrong I am wrong. But just remember some missions will require speed over firepower. I do recall Mitch Gittleman mentioning, that Jordan Weizman has a weaponless Spider Mech with max armour for specific missions where speed is called for.

There is no drop limit, just a counter for your rated drop weight. I believe it costs you more C-Bills if you drop heavier mechs

 

[Hasler]

There is no drop limit, just a counter for your rated drop weight. I believe it costs you more C-Bills if you drop heavier mechs

No cbills for drop either. Only cost is mech cost for each active mech( same for all) and repairs

 

[Hippy]

There is no drop limit, just a counter for your rated drop weight. I believe it costs you more C-Bills if you drop heavier mechs

Jack, as a Beta Backer, did you not play the skirmish mode? The beta skirmish mode used 15 mil, 20 mil, 25 mil and unlimited C-Bil limits for the drops

 

[Bersercker]

I
It's pretty hard to validate a light mech beyond what they've already done to validate them. There's nothing special about Light Mechs vs a Medium mech save for the fact you can get away with moving them faster with less engine investment. Their Jump Jets are a bit lighter, but they also carry less armor and weaponry. I've always liked light mechs, though they aren't for everyone. Say you build up your ultimate MP death lance and you only have room to stuff a light mech in the last slot, so be it. It's still a mech, you just have to know how to use it. It's not something that you're going to send into point blank range with an Atlas, Hunchback or whatever alone. But it is something you can use to finish a mech, spot for you, annoy an opponent and even flank with. If you're rocking an FS9 you can hang that mech back, and jump it in once your opponent is running hot, literally cooking their mech, ammo and possibly pilot to death. I've seen it done, and its damned effective.

There was a ton of suggestions in this and other threads: drop tonnage limits, increased upkeep for heavier mechs, increased drop cost for heavier mechs, rewards for dropping under tonnage etc.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

Jack, as a Beta Backer, did you not play the skirmish mode? The beta skirmish mode used 15 mil, 20 mil, 25 mil and unlimited C-Bil limits for the drops

That's Skirmish mode.

There is no drop limit in the single player campaign. There is a drop rating, which you can use to compare the forces you're dropping against the estimated difficulty of the contract you are taking.

 

[Hippy]

e was a ton of suggestions in this and other threads: drop tonnage limits, incre

That's Skirmish mode.

There is no drop limit in the single player campaign. There is a drop rating, which you can use to compare the forces you're dropping against the estimated difficulty of the contract you are taking.

I know this and was pointing this out myself. Why are you telling me this?

 

[Whiskiz]

It's all about choice of play style and you clearly just want a slug fest at point blank ranges. That's cool, I'm planning on remaining highly mobile and destroying the AI utterly with finesse. The light mech will never be detrimental to my tactics.

Ive been arguing that it sucks that light and mediums become suboptimal, don't like the fact that the game is designed that way, i think of ways for them to keep their meaning and importance and go into why they're currently suboptimal until things change - and your only take away from this is "i just clearly want a slug fest and point blank ranges"?

Can you record your single player mid/late game, your ignorance is going to make for some amazing entertainment lmao.

I tried to break through peoples medium/light fantasies and why each fantasy won't work - with examples and common sense and logic, but the willful ignorance is just too strong.

Apparently every enemy ever is going to just sit 5km away (and wont have sensor lock and long range loadouts themselves, naturally) while lights and mediums plink away, and they'll beat wave upon wave of heavies/assaults/death vehicles without being touched. Light/medium hit n run OP.

I actually can't wait to watch the mid/end game light/medium fireworks on youtube haha......

P.S now i actually hope they don't change a thing, so all the people that are planning on playing light/medium and not listening to anything anyone has to say, will suddenly flood the forums once they get to mid/late game and start getting wrecked. Because by then it'll be too late and it should provide some more entertainment. Apparently they need to experience it firsthand.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I know this and was pointing this out myself. Why are you telling me this?

Yes, I played beta, the drop limits there were imposed to allow for pre-designed lances in AI to drop in easily against the player. I found that, in Skirmish, the AI needed an average of 30 million more than me in mechs to really pose a threat. That, however, was a much earlier Beta only branch of the game that the devs moved past in their own builds.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Ive been arguing that it sucks that light and mediums become suboptimal, don't like the fact that the game is designed that way, i think of ways for them to keep their meaning and importance and go into why they're currently suboptimal until things change - and your only take away from this is "i just clearly want a slug fest and point blank ranges"?

Can you record your single player mid - late game, your ignorance is going to make for some amazing entertainment lmao.

I tried to break through peoples medium/light fantasies and why each fantasy won't work - with examples and common sense and logic, but the willful ignorance is just too strong.

Apparently every enemy ever is going to just sit 5km away why lights and mediums plink away, and they'll beat wave upon wave of heavies/assaults/death vehicles without being touched. Light/medium hit n run OP.

I actually can't wait to watch the mid - end game light/medium fireworks on youtube haha......

P.S now i actually hope they don't change a thing, so all the people that are planning on playing light/medium and not listening to anything anyone has to say, will suddenly flood the forums once they get to mid - late game single player and start getting wrecked haha. Because by then it'll be too late and it should provide some more entertainment. Apparently they need to experience it firsthand.

Light mechs only become suboptimal if you utilize them incorrectly. Medium mechs are incredibly flexible as well, decent firepower with the option of more speed. I'm not planning on standing still or playing like these streamers have been where they only move 1-2 pips before firing. I will be moving fully evasive the entire time.

In a game where we don't have Aerospace support or Artillery to back us up against multiple mechs and armor, the best defense is mobility. In Battletech, it's been said that "Speed is life" and that's going to hold true a lot more than it doesn't even with the changes this game has made to the rules from Table Top. If you plan on wading straight into that slug fest, that's cool, do what you want to do. I'm sure I will have my moments for that as well. To me, it won't be Battletech unless I'm mobile and playing smart. The heaviest weapon I will ideally carry is a PPC for my Jump lances. I will leave the other stuff for my non jumpers. In the game, I will be using that BJ-1's AC2's to pick mechs apart at range, by the time the AI gets to me, they won't have any damn armor left. 4 Medium Lasers is all I will need to make short work of them.

 

[Bersercker]

Light mechs only become suboptimal if you utilize them incorrectly. Medium mechs are incredibly flexible as well, decent firepower with the option of more speed. I'm not planning on standing still or playing like these streamers have been where they only move 1-2 pips before firing. I will be moving fully evasive the entire time.

In a game where we don't have Aerospace support or Artillery to back us up against multiple mechs and armor, the best defense is mobility. In Battletech, it's been said that "Speed is life" and that's going to hold true a lot more than it doesn't even with the changes this game has made to the rules from Table Top. If you plan on wading straight into that slug fest, that's cool, do what you want to do. I'm sure I will have my moments for that as well. To me, it won't be Battletech unless I'm mobile and playing smart. The heaviest weapon I will ideally carry is a PPC for my Jump lances. I will leave the other stuff for my non jumpers. In the game, I will be using that BJ-1's AC2's to pick mechs apart at range, by the time the AI gets to me, they won't have any damn armor left. 4 Medium Lasers is all I will need to make short work of them.

Thats all well and good in theory, only in this game Blackjack has the same mobility as Victor, Zeus, Battlemaster and Banshee, and the same maximum amount of jump jets. Except for Banshee which has double the amount. The rest of the assaults are not far behind(120 speed for Blackjack, 105 speed for Atlas). This holds true for most of the mechs in the game: if you want to use a light or a medium for some reason there is always a heavy or an assault the will do the same thing better.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...oints-speed-usable-tonnage-melee-etc.1088884/