A balance feature that could give meaning back to light mechs.

[Panpiper]

Right now, there is nothing to stop you from pretty much always fielding a team of heavy and assault mechs. Virtually all heavies can have a 4/6/4 movement and so can several assault mechs. 4/6/4 is sufficient movement for virtually all scenarios. Other than as easy cannon fodder and very early missions for the player, light mechs and ultimately even medium mechs, will quickly lose their luster. The initiative advantage alone is not worth the sacrifice in firepower and armor.

Suppose however that the experience gained by your mechwarriors was affected by the relative weight of your own lance versus that of the opposition. If you stood to make say twice as much experience bringing a lance of mediums to a mission, or a heavy lance but with a light scout or whatever, than you would if you went for the heaviest you could, I expect many players would take another look at how they could instead be using the smaller mechs.

This could be accomplished with a quite simple ratio comparison, the weight of what the enemy brings (half weight for vehicles), over the weight of what you bring to the fight. Add an additional factor such as the difficulty of the mission (1-10) over five. These ratios are multiplied with the standard XP reward and that's what your pilots get.

The less weight you bring to the fight, the more experience your pilots earn. Bring 'too much' weight, and you will significantly slow down the experience gain of your pilots. There is still no artificial mechanic 'forcing' you to bring less, you can bring what you want. However a player up to the challenge could gain greater reward by deliberately bringing less than they otherwise could.

 

[Pode]

I would argue in favor of using the difference of the power ratings assigned, since it accounts for more than just tonnage. Skulls minus wings, in 10 percent bonus or penalty steps. Bring your Steiner scout Lance on a half skull contract, get only 10 percent of the exp you get from a fair fight.

 

[Cyttorak001]

What the OP is proposing is a giant game mechanic change with 9 days until release. It's not gonna happen.
Moreover, it isn't necessary. There's already a mechanic in the game, that many people have seen if they paid attention, that solves this problem: a mission timer.
On a few missions, the player has been tasked with holding a base for X number of turns. That means that mission timers already exist and are incorporated into the game. All HBS needs to do is include more missions with narrow time limits...limits that only a fast light 'Mech force (or even a single 'Mech!) could accomplish.

You see the mission description "fast recon," or such and you know you need your light 'Mech.

If the devs are creative, I'm sure they can figure out other ways of forcing the player to use light 'Mechs. If not, then what we'll get is the usual race to the assaults.

 

[djxput]

How about this - add a drop tonnage cost. More tons you bring the more it costs and up the reward also accordingly. So ya you can always field heavier mechs but you wont make as much.

although I do agree with the above poster - not going to change atm. They are probably focusing on bugs ... nothing like a game that releases with a lot of bugs to get bad reviews. Less buggy but good gameplay = good reviews = more sales.

From what I saw with the streams things looked pretty good. I saw I think 2 missions where the streamer had to restart. But thats not bad IMO. (somehow I got off topic

 

[Luminis]

Lights are cheap That's supposed to be their niche, right? C-Bill cost and upkeep ought to be much less than that of heavier Mechs (which sorta reflects the difference in BattleValue in the TT). That's the best angle to tackle it, in my opinion: Use a budget lance, have lower operating expenditure, maximize profits.

 

[Pineapple Salad]

I just hope that the game is open enough for modding so that we can create our own balance mods for whatever tweaks we as a community feel necessary. But I agree with OP, some kind of risk-reward mechanic is sorely needed and it's better if it doesn't feel artificial. Combine drop tonnage rating and drop c-bill costs for heavier lances and we are on to something.

 

[Thalynos]

I am going to copy my post that I made late into another related thread.
--

In real world examples, the operational costs of Military equipment is expressed by an amount of cost (sometimes accompanied by a number of maintenance hours) per hour of operation.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-shows-hourly-cost-of-military-aircraft-2014-12

using this as an example, we see different aircraft's operational costs expressed as $ per hour of flight.

So far, the maintenance costs of mechs is uniform, and is not related to usage. In Cohh's stream we can see it costs 6000 cbills per month per mech to keep it in a ready state but that is not impacted by weight or usage.

To me, there should be maintenance costs relating to deploying a mech into action separate, though perhaps related to, repair costs for damaged components.

Pulling numbers out of my ass, if it costs 1,000 cbills per ton in operational costs to deploy a mech you can see that it is cheaper to deploy a medium mech at 50 tons compared to an assault at 100 tons. (The above cost per ton is an example only and operational costs would have to be balanced against the game's economy)

Given above, you would need to make a decision between cost and risk, which in my mind creates compelling gameplay. Do I drop with 4 atlases and pay a large cost for simply deploying that asset, or do I make use of lighter mechs that cost less to run? Keeping in mind, that operational costs would be in addition to repair costs, so it is a risk vs reward scenario where you are provided an incentive to drop with the lightest mechs that can get the job done but then risk a potentially much higher cost in repairs if your mechs are significantly damaged.

To me, this creates a compelling decision making process where you exam the information available to you and weigh all your options. To me, this creates a reason to bring less powerful mechs that is supported by cannon claims that maintaining assault mechs is expensive and that the reason medium mechs are so prevalent is that they are more cost efficient than larger mechs. I think this is better than arbitrary drop limits or contriving circumstance to force you to bring lights; situations like gathering intel or infiltration are fine when they are exceptions to the norm, but I feel an incentive to field mechs other than your biggest all the time should be more ubiquitous.


---- Note--- Operational costs should be substantially lower than repair costs to facilitate proper interaction between operational costs and risk of repair costs, otherwise using heavier mechs becomes too penalizing and this game is still meant to be fun after all. eg. the operational costs of an atlas should be cheaper than repairing a fully destroyed mech.


Even given the above, when the difference in tonnage is not large, the operational costs will only be marginally higher and there may still be situations where a mech is a functional upgrade of a similar mech of a slightly lower weight, but that is fine I think. Comparing a vindicator and a panther, their operational costs may not differ much, and their speed is similar (the same?) so the vindicator may be a functional upgrade to the panther but I think that is ok.

Anyway, I've rambled enough for now so hopefully i've given you guys something to chew on for a while.

--

This seems pretty relevant to this thread.

 

[Prince of Scars]

What are the best ways to make Lights “useful”:

• Reduce their operating cost/increase the operating cost of other classes.
• Make armor cost money to replace. Seriously, the fact that an Atlas has almost the weight of a Locust in armor and it being free to repair is some serious BS.
• Mission timers.
• Missions with objectives where “destroying everything” will not result in success.
• Role recognition. With the exception of ‘Mechs like the Panther and urbie (thanks to their heavier weapons and slow speed) Lights are not meant to be line combatants. Stop trying to make that a thing.
• Instituting the original 30/40/20/10 ratios. Medium ‘Mechs are supposed to be the most numerous and the first sent into combat, because Lights are Scouts/Recon (typically), and most factions are only willing to risk rarer Heavies & Assaults on “sure things”.

 

[Delta Assault]

Instituting the original 30/40/20/10 ratios. Medium ‘Mechs are supposed to be the most numerous and the first sent into combat, because Lights are Scouts/Recon (typically), and most factions are only willing to risk rarer Heavies & Assaults on “sure things”.

I feel like we've mostly been seeing this in streams. Even towards the end of Sidestrafe's run, he was running into mostly mediums, with one or two heavies. And only 1 assault per mission when he would see one.

 

[remluf]

I think there are ultimately a few ways to achieve a system that allows for a variety of mechs to deploy. One is mission variety where a light (or even very mobile medium) can shine.

The other is to increase the costs associated with heavier mechs. One way to do that would be drop costs (it costs a certain amount per ton to drop mechs into a mission, which is then subtracted from the mission reward). If you want to drop 4 Atlas', fine, but it's going to be expensive.

The other way is simply increase maintenance cost based on class/tonnage. This way is probably the simplest, but also has some of the issues that Kiva pointed out with perhaps disincentivizing heavier mechs (although does that ring hollow to anyone else? Aren't the heavier mechs their own incentive?)

 

[Harmattan Assassin]

I feel like we've mostly been seeing this in streams. Even towards the end of Sidestrafe's run, he was running into mostly mediums, with one or two heavies. And only 1 assault per mission when he would see one.

That's only because he can't advance in the story line, so he's capped out on global difficulty. If he were still advancing in the story line, the global difficulty level would be rising. Eventually lights and then medium mechs will become obsolete.

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

I kinda get the idea of this "make light mechs great again" - but again I fail to see why it would be necessary. Lights do have an inherent defense bonus (-2 to get hit or something like that?), high movement (high evasion), high initiative - and using an "ace pilot" mechwarrior for them even effectively doubles their "reserve and act twice" damage output.
The only thing lights lack is armor and firepower, that's no flaw, that's by design, as they are... light.

Being designed like that, they are no allrounders, but limited to a niche role they perform best in: scout + hit&run.
If you feel like using lights: Do it. If you don't: Don't. I actually like that the game does not force players towards a certain playstyle, but allows US to decide what to do.

I think it would be ok for lighter mechs to have lower upkeep costs, but I'm totally not ok with enforcing mechanics upon players because someone thinks it's "more fun". Well, if it is more fun for you, there is no limitation on what you force yourself to do or don't do. There is no need to force this on other players just for your personal definition of "fun"

 

[remluf]

I kinda get the idea of this "make light mechs great again" - but again I fail to see why it would be necessary. Lights do have an inherent defense bonus (-2 to get hit or something like that?), high movement (high evasion), high initiative - and using an "ace pilot" mechwarrior for them even effectively doubles their "reserve and act twice" damage output.
The only thing lights lack is armor and firepower, that's no flaw, that's by design, as they are... light.

Being designed like that, they are no allrounders, but limited to a niche role they perform best in: scout + hit&run.
If you feel like using lights: Do it. If you don't: Don't. I actually like that the game does not force players towards a certain playstyle, but allows US to decide what to do.

I think it would be ok for lighter mechs to have lower upkeep costs, but I'm totally not ok with enforcing mechanics upon players because someone thinks it's "more fun". Well, if it is more fun for you, there is no limitation on what you force yourself to do or don't do. There is no need to force this on other players just for your personal definition of "fun"

A lot of this comes from streams, but I think the concern comes from what seems to be a lack of variety in missions where not having 4 brawlers/damage dealers/damage sponges seems like an auto-loss. If after 2.5 skulls you're dealing with primarily heavies + assaults in fairly narrow confines, you don't really have an opportunity to see lights shine.

Now - that being said, some of that might come from the streamers themselves (especially sidestrafe). He didn't seem to value mobility and often didn't really use the battlefield to his advantage - instead just marching in and slugging it out with whatever came through. I don't know if other streamers showed enough to really get an idea of what else was possible with a more mixed loadout.

From a personal perspective, I'm looking forward to an ace pilot Firestarter as either an overheat boat or a MG/injury boat. But I don't yet know how viable that is once the enemy starts coming with heavy mechs.

 

[Delta Assault]

If they really wanted to make light mechs great, they would just get rid of evasive charges being stripped from weapons fire. That mechanic never really made any sense to me in terms of reality. Why would shooting at an evasive Mech make it less evasive? In tabletop, fast Mechs were just evasive as hell because of their high movement modifiers, and no amount of firing on them would make them less so.

 

[Prince of Scars]

I feel like we've mostly been seeing this in streams. Even towards the end of Sidestrafe's run, he was running into mostly mediums, with one or two heavies. And only 1 assault per mission when he would see one.

I have only seen just a little past the recovery of the Argo, but hearing that does raise my hopes somewhat. However, the 30/40/20/10 ratio applies primarily to the Inner Sphere and not the significantly lower tech Periphery. It is what it is though.

 

[remluf]

If they really wanted to make light mechs great, they would just get rid of evasive charges being stripped from weapons fire. That mechanic never really made any sense to me in terms of reality. Why would shooting at an evasive Mech make it less evasive? In tabletop, fast Mechs were just evasive as hell because of their high movement modifiers, and no amount of firing on them would make them less so.

That at least should be easily moddable, although you may possibly want a corresponding boost to sensor lock.

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

A lot of this comes from streams, but I think the concern comes from what seems to be a lack of variety in missions where not having 4 brawlers/damage dealers/damage sponges seems like an auto-loss. If after 2.5 skulls you're dealing with primarily heavies + assaults in fairly narrow confines, you don't really have an opportunity to see lights shine.

Well, than maybe this just is not a scenario in which one wants to use lights. They are no allrounders, fighting heavies and assaults with light mechs sounds like a bad idea
Because they don't perform well at this task doesn't mean they don't at other tasks, like extractions. We don't have seen all the mission types afaik.

I just don't like mechanics that force me to play a game a certain way. Be it drop limitations or some as abstract, nonsense mission timers on every mission. This was actually something I hated about XCOM, it's ok SOMETIMES, but on almost every **** mission? And this is a mechanic that doesn't transfer well to BT, because there are no real "weight classes" in xcom.

And if some players wish to go full steiner scout lance at some point, why not? What's the problem about it? I wouldn't do it, for various reasons, and I know this choice might make my lategame a little harder, but that is my choice. As it is anyones choice to use light mechs or not. No need for external "motivation" imo

 

[Prince of Scars]

If they really wanted to make light mechs great, they would just get rid of evasive charges being stripped from weapons fire. That mechanic never really made any sense to me in terms of reality. Why would shooting at an evasive Mech make it less evasive? In tabletop, fast Mechs were just evasive as hell because of their high movement modifiers, and no amount of firing on them would make them less so.

‘Mechs lose evasive charges because the the enemy fire is directing them in certain directions to avoid that fire and make it easier for future shots to hit them because the units that fire later will have a better idea where they will be. Think of how Destroyer players utilize torpedoes on WoWS. They will fire one salvo of torpedoes to cause their target to swerve, then fire the rest after their target has commuted to the turn increasing the likelyhood of hits.

 

[Delta Assault]

‘Mechs lose evasive charges because the the enemy fire is directing them in certain directions to avoid that fire and make it easier for future shots to hit them because the units that fire later will have a better idea where they will be. Think of how Destroyer players utilize torpedoes on WoWS. They will fire one salvo of torpedoes to cause their target to swerve, then fire the rest after their target has commuted to the turn increasing the likelyhood of hits.

I've never seen it that way. When you're running across a battlefield under fire, the enemy fire isn't directing you in certain directions. You're just sprinting full speed regardless of where the enemy fire. Torpedoes traveling through the water are slow. Mechs are running in 10 second increments (if we go by tabletop).

 

[Delta Assault]

Well, than maybe this just is not a scenario in which one wants to use lights. They are no allrounders, fighting heavies and assaults with light mechs sounds like a bad idea
Because they don't perform well at this task doesn't mean they don't at other tasks, like extractions. We don't have seen all the mission types afaik.

I just don't like mechanics that force me to play a game a certain way. Be it drop limitations or some as abstract, nonsense mission timers on every mission. This was actually something I hated about XCOM, it's ok SOMETIMES, but on almost every **** mission? And this is a mechanic that doesn't transfer well to BT, because there are no real "weight classes" in xcom.

And if some players wish to go full steiner scout lance at some point, why not? What's the problem about it? I wouldn't do it, for various reasons, and I know this choice might make my lategame a little harder, but that is my choice. As it is anyones choice to use light mechs or not. No need for external "motivation" imo

It was fine in XCOM1, because the timers were only in missions maybe 5% of the time. But in XCOM2, they put them in seemingly 95% of the missions, which just sucked. I modded them out.