9th Ethos from stream? 2017/02/16

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smjjames

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...Psionic pops don't have their own 'ethic' because psionics are still individuals with personal notions of morality. Remember that in the upcoming expansion, each pop can only have a single ethic - it's not as if all psionics automatically share a single agenda. The same won't necessarily be the case for hivemind pops.

Only problem is that, if each pop can only have a single ethic, how does it work as a rebel/separatist/autonomist indicator? Do your rebel pops have no ethos? Doesn't seem like that's how it's supposed to work.

It's the hivemind.

It's there for mechanics' sake - to make sure that the pops that join the hivemind don't join any faction.

Hivemind pops get full attraction towards this ethos, leaving any and all factions other than the hivemind. The hivemind faction is there to ensure that even as a hivemind you get influence that other nations would get from various different factions.

Um, slaves have that mechanic currently and don't require anything special for ethos. And again, you have to consider how that would work with ethics flow and the fact that your pops can only have one ethic at a time.
 

Sinister2202

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From the Paradox website:

"Advanced Governments: Adopt unique civics and authorities for your government. Play as a Fanatic Purifier and shun all diplomacy, become a Hive Mind to avoid political strife or create a multi-species empire born of Syncretic Evolution."

It seems like Hive Minds will be an authority alongside other former AI personalities.

If that is the case, I doubt it would be worthy of its own "Ethos". Personally, I think the 9th icon might be related to sectors instead.

I doubt it's anything to do with hivemind or opposite of hivemind. I don't see anything opposite of what this is. I doubt it's even something a player can choose. Sure, the page says that, but I don't see fanatic purifier as an ethos either. I don't think hivemind is an ethos, period. It's not something that much of unique to have on its own, without any opposites. This may as well be tied to ascension and how much of your population has ascension attraction/potential to whichever path. (ie how many % of your pop are psionic/biological/synthetic). Ascension paths also have 2 levels. You advance a level if prerequisite has been met. Perhaps this has to do with the leveling.

From DD54
Over time, the ethics of your pops will drift in such a way that it roughly matches the overall attraction of that value. For example, if your materialist attraction sits at 10% for decades, it's likely that after that time, around 10% of your pops will be materialist. There is some random factor so it's likely never going to match up perfectly, but the system is built to try and go towards the mean, so the more overrepresented an ethic is compared to its attraction, the more likely pops are to drift away from it and vice versa.

The ascension paths are obviously tied to ethos, as explained in DDs. Psionics will have requirement of spiritualist ethos. (The other two haven't yet been revealed but my guess for synthetics is materialist ethos.) It makes sense that the ascension indicator is next to these ethos and on faction screen, because they are all very much related. If the empire chose psionics ascension path, then spiritualist ethos attraction should be reasonably high (preferably higher than materialist ethos) in order for the ascension attraction to tick. You need hell of a commitment to replace your body parts with machines, in my opinion. It's just my theory though.

If the 9th was indeed an ethos, they would've explained it in DD #54 where they explain the ethos rework.
 
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Me_

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First, let's consider what the symbol itself can represent. As of right now, there are only two things that we know of that can be associated with a honeycomb symbol - hive mind and ascention perks.

If you don't see how "hive"mind should use a honeycomb symbol, then apparently you come from a society that lives in a part of the world mostly or completely devoid of bees and therefore don't know what the most common symbol for a hive is - I suspect one of the Arctic Circles, so hello the first Eskimo I met.

As for ascention perks - we need to ask ourselves: what would be the purpose of an ascention faction. What could they want from you that could make them provide influenc. Nothing. You see, choosing an ascention perk is an act, while every one of the things that factions want are stuff that needs to be maintained. They don't want you to build defensive structures, they want you to have defensive structures. As a result ascention faction could not reasonably want anything that you could maintain (as ascention perks are not something that needs to be maintained - pick one and it stays).

So, we have removed the impossible and what remains must be true, but let's go further.

It has been said that Hivemind will let you eschew political strife. Political strife in game represents factions that can be unhappy. Simply giving all hivemind pops attraction towards your ethos is not enough, as having pops in faction that fits your ethos is not a guarantee of them not causing problems. If you are pacifist, but keep waging wars, your pacifist pops will be unhappy and cause political strife even if you are nominally fanatical pacifist. So a hivemind needs a way to avoid having factions that could disagree with what you do regardless of what it is you do.

Ok, so maybe no factions for hiveminds. Then we run into the influence problem. You see, in Banks a major source of your influence is going to be factions. Sure, this could be circumvented by giving the hivemind government a flat influence bonus, but that wouls incentivize the players to actually keep factions going as a hivemind in order to get influence from both the government and the factions. Solution - one big happy hivemind faction.

Finally, on te topic of "authorities". As we know nothing about any such thing it may very well not even be a separate mechanics but a variation on existing ones (e.g. special type of politics) or maybe even nothing at all but a buzzwords for all special mechanics that governments can have. And on that subject, even if it is a new mechanics for advanced governments, it would make no sense for it to be the only unique mechanics those governments have. They want more distinct governments, which means ussing different mechanics for different ones, not a single mechanics with different effects for each, so whatever authorities are they are almost certainly just one piece of a puzzle, not all of it.

And finally, the fact that Wiz said that the Hivemind would not fit into the current ethos system - the simple solution - give it a separate ethos with its own effects or give it no ethos whatsoever. The second would mean less gameplay for hiveminds and who would want to play them then. Once again we remove the impossible to arrive at our destination - the certain.
Um, slaves have that mechanic currently and don't require anything special for ethos. And again, you have to consider how that would work with ethics flow and the fact that your pops can only have one ethic at a time.
And your argument is? Once you become hivemind the pops lose other ethoses. They don't need them anymore, as ethoses no longer give bonuses to pops themselves - all they do is affect their happines via factions and that they will get from the hivemind faction.
 

Marinaliteyears

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You confuse the precursor reapers, withe the quarian made ai that worships said precursors
nono. If the ending happens, then the Geth would become part organic, (due to events in the ending) and thus be a half organic machine consciousness.

It was a dumb comment anyway.
 

Sinister2202

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First, let's consider what the symbol itself can represent. As of right now, there are only two things that we know of that can be associated with a honeycomb symbol - hive mind and ascention perks.

If you don't see how "hive"mind should use a honeycomb symbol, then apparently you come from a society that lives in a part of the world mostly or completely devoid of bees and therefore don't know what the most common symbol for a hive is - I suspect one of the Arctic Circles, so hello the first Eskimo I met.

As for ascention perks - we need to ask ourselves: what would be the purpose of an ascention faction. What could they want from you that could make them provide influenc. Nothing. You see, choosing an ascention perk is an act, while every one of the things that factions want are stuff that needs to be maintained. They don't want you to build defensive structures, they want you to have defensive structures. As a result ascention faction could not reasonably want anything that you could maintain (as ascention perks are not something that needs to be maintained - pick one and it stays).

So, we have removed the impossible and what remains must be true, but let's go further.

It has been said that Hivemind will let you eschew political strife. Political strife in game represents factions that can be unhappy. Simply giving all hivemind pops attraction towards your ethos is not enough, as having pops in faction that fits your ethos is not a guarantee of them not causing problems. If you are pacifist, but keep waging wars, your pacifist pops will be unhappy and cause political strife even if you are nominally fanatical pacifist. So a hivemind needs a way to avoid having factions that could disagree with what you do regardless of what it is you do.

Ok, so maybe no factions for hiveminds. Then we run into the influence problem. You see, in Banks a major source of your influence is going to be factions. Sure, this could be circumvented by giving the hivemind government a flat influence bonus, but that wouls incentivize the players to actually keep factions going as a hivemind in order to get influence from both the government and the factions. Solution - one big happy hivemind faction.

Finally, on te topic of "authorities". As we know nothing about any such thing it may very well not even be a separate mechanics but a variation on existing ones (e.g. special type of politics) or maybe even nothing at all but a buzzwords for all special mechanics that governments can have. And on that subject, even if it is a new mechanics for advanced governments, it would make no sense for it to be the only unique mechanics those governments have. They want more distinct governments, which means ussing different mechanics for different ones, not a single mechanics with different effects for each, so whatever authorities are they are almost certainly just one piece of a puzzle, not all of it.

And finally, the fact that Wiz said that the Hivemind would not fit into the current ethos system - the simple solution - give it a separate ethos with its own effects or give it no ethos whatsoever. The second would mean less gameplay for hiveminds and who would want to play them then. Once again we remove the impossible to arrive at our destination - the certain.

And your argument is? Once you become hivemind the pops lose other ethoses. They don't need them anymore, as ethoses no longer give bonuses to pops themselves - all they do is affect their happines via factions and that they will get from the hivemind faction.

I don't think it has anything to do with ascension perks, but ascension paths rather. Ascension perks have nothing to do with ethos and vice versa, nor do they have anything to do with factions. And factions on their own are merely sub-categories of ethos that provide influence, depending on which ethos are most favorable. Factions are just politics. Ethos are ethos. And no, there's no point for a ascension faction and there shouldn't be one. If you read ascension DD, it explains how POPs "BECOME" or have "POTENTIAL" to ascend. Meaning ascension doesn't happen for everybody right away. There are also two levels for each ascension paths. One being partial and beneficial, and the 2nd being extremely radical in terms of changing ALL THE POPs, which would require ambitious prerequisite. Also, these indicators are ethos ATTRACTION. It still makes sense that ascension has a form of "appeal" to the people. But hive mind is of no question of whether it's attractive or not... Hive mind is an absolute form of collective consciousness. Perhaps, if this is really a hive mind ethos, it would be represented as 100% most of the time, unless you have conquered alien species who aren't hive mind.

And I doubt that ascension is easy in this game. We've got 8 ethos, and they all oppose one another. Imagine you got an empire with ethos attraction for every ethos. It would be quite divided and prove challenging to make materialist pops ascend to become psionics.

But if this is indeed a hive mind ethos, it would be like you said: no need for any other ethos therefore no factions and no political strife once picked. Your main POPs wouldn't divert to any other ethos. You'd also earn a lot of influence points and spend a lot of influence points in hive mind government, possibly. Perhaps I'm taking the "advanced government" out of context; maybe Paradox meant as in more advanced ways of governing. So this doesn't really mean an advanced government type or less gameplay, but rather different kind of gameplay. Maybe you'd be avoiding political strife, but instead you are trying to keep the empire 100% hive mind. And I just don't see how a conquered species can just suddenly adopt an ethos of hive mind, to become one themselves. And how this will help hive mind avoid political strife, I have no idea. Maybe hive mind have a way of their own to subdue aliens.

... unless, of course, hive mind ethos doesn't cost all 3 ethos points and can pair with other ethos, allowing the choices on government types. Egalitarian hive mind makes a bit of sense, even with a government form of democracy. But I highly doubt that's the case. If hive mind is an ethos, it ultimately shouldn't be paired with other ethos... thus no government types should be chosen, because otherwise it would mean political strife... In this case, maybe hive mind ethos would allow for a special government type of its own, and we just don't know about it yet.

But this still doesn't answer: What if you conquer a different species who also have hive mind ethos? They suddenly become part of your collective, after you appease them for conquering them? Makes no sense. A conquered militarist by a militarist, becoming happy overtime due to same ethos, makes more sense. So, I still don't see how hive mind can work as an ethos, even with the rework. What ever this "authority" thing is, besides that, it would make more sense to have hive mind as a trait. You are either born as hive mind or not. You don't simply become one, unless you've been engineered to become one.
 

Brickfix

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Aw, this is a perfect explanation. They are in the factions screen and of course separatist factions aren't necessarily tied to any ethos (except maybe individualist).
I agree with this. It is quite common that seperatists are allied because of an "outside threat", in this case the interstellar gouvernment. Their goal is to become independent, whatever the cost, and it would be really interesting to not know what kind of empire will be formed, in case of a seperatists success. They could be highly opposed or very simiular to the ethics of the former empire they where part of. Would be quite interesting to see :D
 

Cri11e

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Aw, this is a perfect explanation. They are in the factions screen and of course separatist factions aren't necessarily tied to any ethos (except maybe individualist).

If this is correct it would have been covered in yesterday's devdiary. Of course we see this icon in the devdiary but no explanation of what it does, I thoroughly checked.
 

Meneliki

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Guys, guys. You've got it all wrong. That symbol is the 'Honeymaker' ethic. It's a representation of your empire's desire to breed bees and create mass amounts of honey.
 

Vahouth

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One thing that just occured to me, is that we're probably getting a new backround for diplomacy with the Hive Mind as well, since each ethos has its own. ;)

Also If it's not mutually exclusive with any of the others, I can definitely see Authoritarian (Queen) or Egalitarian (Consensus) variations of this theme.
 
Last edited:

Ikael

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I really wish that it will be a new ethos axis. Perhaps they will reintroduce "collectivism VS individualism"? I mean, honeycomb pannels do evoke "collectivism", afterall. However, the implementation of a hive mind as an "ethos" that you can steer your popullace towards seems like an interesting mechanic to me. Ah, so many new features to be discovered! Love it!
 

Me_

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But this still doesn't answer: What if you conquer a different species who also have hive mind ethos? They suddenly become part of your collective, after you appease them for conquering them? Makes no sense. A conquered militarist by a militarist, becoming happy overtime due to same ethos, makes more sense. So, I still don't see how hive mind can work as an ethos, even with the rework. What ever this "authority" thing is, besides that, it would make more sense to have hive mind as a trait. You are either born as hive mind or not. You don't simply become one, unless you've been engineered to become one.
It has already been stated that Xenophobes of different species will not join the same faction, so I would assume that hive-minded pops of different species would not join that of yours unless some kind of action can be taken to introduce them into the same hive-mind.

I would agree about the Hive Minds except that:
a) it has been said in the DLC blurb that the government is an "Advanced" One;
b) I highly suspect that it indeed is going to be just engineered hive-minds as the DLC is already huge.

I sure think it would be better to have hive minds as a completely separate type of nation that would be based on species trait, but judging by the signs that is not going to be the case :(. At least in this DLC.


Now that I think about it, some different mechanics tied to sectors would fit the symbol, but rebels seem to be more tied to unrest and it would be weird to have separatists as rebels without a cause (as they would have no distinct ethics of their own).

If this is correct it would have been covered in yesterday's devdiary. Of course we see this icon in the devdiary but no explanation of what it does, I thoroughly checked.
Not necessarily. The system might still be in development, that being the reason for not showing it.
 

The Founder

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For people who missed today's stream, 9th ethos trolling from Wiz and Cknoor. Hivemind related maybe?
It would make sense. The symbol is that of a Honeycomb, and Hiveminds are usually associated with Insects like Bees.
It would especially make sense to add that as a Ethos. Becomming part of the Hivemind effectively replaces personal Ethos/removes the room for Ethics. Borg Drones have no Ethos unless Freed from the Hivemind.
The downside might include: No Ability to change Empire Ethos, No Faction Influence Income and technological or Ascension Perk requirements.

And it would also be typical for them teasing it to show it next time:
That's all for today! Next week we'll be talking about the last of the major feature reworks coming in Banks: Government and Civics.

We'll also be talking about Hive Minds.

Only problem is that, if each pop can only have a single ethic, how does it work as a rebel/separatist/autonomist indicator? Do your rebel pops have no ethos? Doesn't seem like that's how it's supposed to work.
Rebel Factions have been moved to the Unrest Mechanic. See Dev Diary 61.
And Unrest is based on Happiness, wich is based on Factions and living conditions.

I like to call the 1.5 main Factions "Political Action Comitees". Because they are more like a Political Party then the Rebel Factions we knew and supressed.
 

Ikael

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May 6, 2016
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Sooooo the Hive Mind is going to be both an Ethos and a goverment? Very elegant, cool solution, love it! Ethic divergence will be the bane of the hivemind,I see. Still, not too sold on the whole "fully customizable goverments" that this twitter update seems to hint at, but we better wait until we get the full developer's diary.
 

Cri11e

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This thread could be a good example of how to interpret information in the future, everyone had so many valid angles and ideas. And I think some more of the different points made in this thread might be validated this week. Gj everybody looking forward to more brainstorming in the future ^----_----^
 

Me_

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