91st Air Landing Division (LL) balance

[Raventhefuhrer]

While I think the 91. LLD needs some improvements, I do think people should be aware that it's not meant to be compared 1:1 against the Scots, which is a mechanized division. In other words, it's an Apples-to-Oranges comparison because the LLD brings other assets (like a meatier airtab, supporting units, etc.) that can be a benefit to the entire team, even if it loses overall against the Scots in a 1v1 engagement.

 

[Souroy]

Personally I would like to see some kind of mobile reaction unit. While I understand the logic behind the disappearing trucks it hits the 91.Luftlande really hard as it basically loose any hope of repositioning (while the Scots gets halftracks).
I tried to use the H39 (as the R35 are hopelessly too slow and the StuG may be unavailable/used somewhere else) but the results have been mixed, especially against M15 which perma-stun them.
Did the Luftlande use some armored cars or SPAAG at one point or the others of the campaign? As I think it would help to temporize while the StuG and infantry move.

 

[steelers708]

More units passed through 91. LLD's command in the Cotentin Peninsula than any other division, more than doubling its strenght.
Hence, accounting with those, which indeed aren't organic, one can still say it lost more men than it had at first.


I'm well aware that the StuG weren't organic, but as far as I can recall, they were from StuG-Abt. 902, not 280.

We're obviously not going to agree on your first point above, your information obviously differs from mine(interested in your source). As to the second point I was in a hurry and didn't double check my StuG sources, I was wrong and you were half right, it was actually StuG-Brigade 902 as Stug Abt 902 was redesignated in February 1944.

 

[Sotahullu]

Did the Luftlande use some armored cars or SPAAG at one point or the others of the campaign? As I think it would help to temporize while the StuG and infantry move.

Well German Infantry Divisions were supposed to have few armored cars but only few divisions got these, even then some of the older or captured ones.

And the best SPAAG they propably had was 2cm Flak put on a truck of some form. This was a common conversion.

 

[Son of a Duck]

While I think the 91. LLD needs some improvements, I do think people should be aware that it's not meant to be compared 1:1 against the Scots, which is a mechanized division. In other words, it's an Apples-to-Oranges comparison because the LLD brings other assets (like a meatier airtab, supporting units, etc.) that can be a benefit to the entire team, even if it loses overall against the Scots in a 1v1 engagement.

LL competes even worse against 3rd Armoured

The reason why people have been comparing LL and Scots is because of the infantry that both divisions bring. The Scottish infantry is objectively better.

 

[Feeblezak]

Tell your Pak 36's to hold fire with their main ammo unless they are engaging half tracks and other soft skinned vehicles. Their secondary ammo is amazing, but very short range.

It's not great, but it's something for phase A vs those Churchill AVREs (which should be phase B, not Phase A).

All in all it seems this division is intended to fight in urban areas or very dense hedgerows, it's not intended for long range open engagements. Play to your strengths.

 

[Hawt Old Lady]

Whenever I play with them I feel like I'm about to be steamrolled, even if I have a 2:1 kd. I really like that about them. They have very little to take care of md and light vehicles in phase A. The only success I have had with them was in a town using all of the offmap artillery. The rail gun is amazing and kills most units hit by it. Multiple offmap arty calls at the same time can kill an entire enemy force and clear a whole town. They have good planes. Right now you can only use them in a large town or heavy hedgerows, but I feel like I have very few options pushing forward. I feel like all of these issues add flavor to the division.

Instead of buffing them I would nerf arty and APCs machine guns.

 

[Feeblezak]

Okay, i've just played the 91 Luftlande again.

The Pak-36 standard shells bounce off M3 Halftracks and Bren carriers...

They do need more extensive anti-tank capabilities, imo.

 

[IS-2]

Just played this division in a couple 1v1s and steamrolled my opponent both times. Granted I have yet to lose 1v1 even against famous ranked players but then again I only play axis so thats not saying much.

The Hs-129 is insanely effective when theres not 3 other player's air tabs hunting it. You can fly it around and pop all enemy armour with ease if you have fighter escort. Fallschirmjager in smaller matches are terminators especially with cmd unit with them. I had 3 Falls and obliterated like 10 rifle squads in the train station of that one map. And of course the rocket Bf109 and Fw190 Jabo that goes 260 kmh are great units. The FW doubles as a fighter and cant be caught by the spits and mustangs after its bombing strike. Alternatively it can be used as an ASF because of its insane speed.

I don't have the pak 36 in my deck, didn't even try it. The pak 40 is great and the panzershreck squads are king AT.

It definitely seems like a 1v1, at most 2v2 deck. Anything above and it is trash.

 

[Graphic]

Meeting 15th Scots in a town with this division is like driving into a brick wall. You're simply no match for their elite units. Fallschirmjagers are definitely too expensive. At their price, in Phase A you can get less than one per minute and it's not enough to keep up with attrition.

 

[holoween]

Meeting 15th Scots in a town with this division is like driving into a brick wall. You're simply no match for their elite units. Fallschirmjagers are definitely too expensive. At their price, in Phase A you can get less than one per minute and it's not enough to keep up with attrition.

this runs quite contrary to my experience. the only time i got stopped in a town by the 15th was the first game ive played with the 91st.
for all others having a good ammount of ig18, morthars, mg and 20mm flak supporting a large meat shield of ersatztruppen at the start and then reinforcing with falls to break them has easily broken any town position.

 

[Kipsta]

Just played this division in a couple 1v1s and steamrolled my opponent both times. Granted I have yet to lose 1v1 even against famous ranked players but then again I only play axis so thats not saying much.

The Hs-129 is insanely effective when theres not 3 other player's air tabs hunting it. You can fly it around and pop all enemy armour with ease if you have fighter escort. Fallschirmjager in smaller matches are terminators especially with cmd unit with them. I had 3 Falls and obliterated like 10 rifle squads in the train station of that one map. And of course the rocket Bf109 and Fw190 Jabo that goes 260 kmh are great units. The FW doubles as a fighter and cant be caught by the spits and mustangs after its bombing strike. Alternatively it can be used as an ASF because of its insane speed.

I don't have the pak 36 in my deck, didn't even try it. The pak 40 is great and the panzershreck squads are king AT.

It definitely seems like a 1v1, at most 2v2 deck. Anything above and it is trash.

This guy gets it.

 

[Grimreapo]

Er! If you guys could make and upload some replays it would be super grand! Heck, just make a replay and upload it to youtube as I would love to see this!

That said I dont think the lack of AT is a biggest problem for the LuftBros, I think there is a general balance problem of 'foot' artillery vs Mortar HT/SPAGs, see foot artillery has crews which can be be killed off whenever there is a blast near them but because SPGs dont have crews they cant be whittled down by near misses. I'm not sure how to fix this as IRL the amount of foot artillery VASTLY outnumbered SPGs where it was never out gunned by SPGs...

 

[jinxphoenix]

Just played against a competent 91LL player. They dominated the air war and held their ground ok (against a 3rd Armour deck) in a 10v10 i was playing. What i would say is that they are very clearly built as the "support deck " that player a player or two in 10v10's would bring in WG. Probably wont stand up well in a 1v1 or 2v2 where players need to control the front, but when a 91LL deck is in say 3v3 or up, i can imagine them being very useful.

Obviously, this is personnel anecdote, not statistical data, so take it as you will

 

[Bartke]

give them pak 7.5 cm. -- panzerjäger kompanie 191 had 12 pak 7.5cm RSO
give them stug -- Sturmgeschützbrigade 902 had operational 21 stug III and was part of 91.LL
This count is from 27.06.44.
the division had lost roughly 1/4 of its men and a third of its equpment at that time.
Half the means to resupply ammunition, they had a severe supply situation.

 

[Grimreapo]

Just played a game where I used those FW190 bombers and was humming this:

So good at stressing out tank like Jumbos, A+ Air Support unit!

As I said before though, even with these bombers SPAGs are such a facking pain if your Hs 190 is taken out...

 

[Death6]

The Luftwaffe really makes this division shine I think. You can bring immense air support to the field.

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

Whenever I play with them I feel like I'm about to be steamrolled, even if I have a 2:1 kd.

This is at least in part because infantry can't replenish their numbers. Even when you're winning, you're losing because your infantry-focused army is being attritioned in a way a tank-focused army can't be, because of course tanks don't have 'hitpoints' like infantry, they just recover fully.

It would be a game-changer for the 91. LL if Fallschirmjager could be pulled off the line to replenish men.

 

[holoween]

This is at least in part because infantry can't replenish their numbers. Even when you're winning, you're losing because your infantry-focused army is being attritioned in a way a tank-focused army can't be, because of course tanks don't have 'hitpoints' like infantry, they just recover fully.

It would be a game-changer for the 91. LL if Fallschirmjager could be pulled off the line to replenish men.

that would only mean your kd improves even further.

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

@holoween He said even when he has a 2:1 KD he feels like he's close to being steamrolled. What I'm saying is that this is because his infantry squads are taking losses, so even if he's trading positively he's running out of guys in the line, and needs to buy more. So his 2:1 KD doesn't matter as much.

A tank trading positively is fine as long as it doesn't die.
An infantry company trading positively starts to become combat ineffective after taking a few losses.

Edit: Also, it'd be nice if 91. LL came with 40 activation points instead of 38.