80 years war - any way to prevent French from giving Spain access?

[Thurak]

Hi everyone,

ok, so in my fifth or so try I finally managed to defeat Spain in the initial war at the 80 years war scenario start (lot's of loans, 7 more dutch artilleries, every mercenary available and just three more carracks before I engaged the Armada - or what the Spanish king sent to me... 15 became 24 during that war) just because France did not give them military access.
Then I was a bit greedy, prolonged the peace until finally the Spaniards gave me all the Flemish provinces and also released Luxembourg.

So far, so great, every neighbour hates me

But still... I was lucky enough to have a peaceful 10 years in which half the coalition members, including my Emperor Austria, left that coalition. Now it's just Spain, Aachen, Cologne and Munster against me. And there is war.
France usually joins the fun, but in that second war Austria and the empire help out, so let's just ignore the whole France vs Austria and the Empire part of this threeway.

France and Spain don't like that other that much, do they?

Long story short: Is there any way I can somehow hardcode in my savegame that Spain will NEVER EVER get military access from France? Just for this Dutch game I am afraid I need it.

 

[Atlanteax]

I fail to see the issue where if France was not at war with you, France would be denying Spain access by land ... and France, if fighting alongside Spain in the same war against you, lets Spain march its armies to engage you.

 

[Thurak]

The point is: You don't need to play the game as Dutch in that scenario with Spain having military access through France, because you won't survive.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

You need France as an ally. It was pretty stupid from you to go after all Flemish provinces during the first war. That means France will instantly hate you because you as reformed faith share border with them. You need a buffer zone between you and French. This is in fact my favorite scenario and when I play it I always just take Antwerpen and sometimes Limburg and Ghent. Remember you are a trade power so a little more tax from Flanders is not that important. Now the best way how to end the war is to force Spain to release Flanders (except Antwerpen that one MUST go directly to you) and then immediately DOW them and vassalise them, and make alliance with French. So now you have a buffer between you and BBB and because you are allied they won't declare war against your vassal. THe same can be done with Hainault, if you can do it. Once you 2 are allied you are pretty much safe in Europe. Another solution if this doesn't work is to leave Spanish flemish provinces intact (except Antwerpen again). Remember - you don't want Spain to become too weak, because you'll need them to balance out France, because once French border touches you they will immediately become hostile.

 

[Thurak]

Mhhh, I do have a savegame a few days before the glorious but greedy Dutch-Spanish Peace was signed. But it feels wrong not to aim for every Flemish province, just one. And in EU III the common border was not too bad, iirc, still managed to get an alliance with France. But well, that was EU III .

If I try out that road, and actually manage a French-Dutch alliance, can I then later diplo-annex Flanders (and get a border with them) or will that ruin relations for sure and too strongly because of religious differences?

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

If I try out that road, and actually manage a French-Dutch alliance, can I then later diplo-annex Flanders (and get a border with them) or will that ruin relations for sure and too strongly because of religious differences?

I recommend to annex Flanders, only when you are strong enough to deal with France - which in Dutch case means a lot of money to fund mercenary armies. But those provinces aren't too important really. Most of your money comes from trade. The only reason why I recommend to vassalise the Flanders (and Hainault if you can) is because if you don't in some time FRANCE will annex them - and that means you have the same problem - France on your borders. BUt if you vassalize them and ally France you'll be safe - for some time to create your trade empire.

Generally my favorite 1st phase (100 years) is to defeat Spain, annex Antwerpen, release and vassalize Hainault and Flanders plus take as much money as you can to pay all your loans. Ally France, ask for fleet rights and move one merchant and caravels to Genoa. It's not as rich node as Lubeck, but there's almost no competition in this era. Colonize some free islands in Carribean and some North America. You should be still running small deficits at this time, but it doesn't matter much. When ready move one merchant and your light fleet to Carribean and steal Spanish trade from whole continent to NA where you can collect with another merchant. This single move might make you the richest european power. If Spain is too competitive in Carribean DOW them, with France as an ally you should easily win and take some poorer (lower coring cost) Carribean provinces and 50% of their trade power in deal. But like I said don't cripple them too much, otherwise France will eat them.
Then you should build eastern trade route from Malacca to Cape, because there will be a lot of competition (England, France) in NA once they start to colonize. Once you have enough income from this "eastern route" you can annex your vassals and engage France. You can also expand into the Lubeck, but that generally means enemies on every side.

 

[Thurak]

Thanks for all the advice, there is just one tiny, little problem: I can't get enough money with just Antwerp... running more or less even. Yeah, I could disband some of my 24 carracks... but do I not need them?
If I can suirvive long enough the gold from Mali in a decade or so may be nice... or the gold in southeast-Africa (if Portugal let me take this) so I am not to afraid of my money problems in the long run. But that doesn't help me now (1590-1600).

Oh, and besides... I just can't figure out how to get a powerful ally, most preferably of course France. Even with a released Flanders (which I did not vassalize as I was already warned by France at that time) they all hate me and max relationships are pretty low I am afraid. Yesterday I went to bed when Lüttich and France DOW'ed me. Argh. I can't get everything (diplomatically) done in the few years I have.

I'll try a bit more to figure a way out to do this, but my original question still stands: Can I prevent Spain from getting access through France (if must be via editing)?

 

[grommile]

I'll try a bit more to figure a way out to do this, but my original question still stands: Can I prevent Spain from getting access through France (if must be via editing)?

You'd need to ensure that there is absolutely no circumstance under which Spain and France could end up participating in the same war as each other while Spain's at war with you. For preventing them being on the same side, this includes:

• Spain and France never both join the same coalition.
• Spain and France never both independently ally with the same third country.
• Spain and France never guarantee each other.
• Spain and France don't end up having the same dynasty on the throne (creating the prospect of a PU).
• Spain and France never both guarantee the same third country.
• Neither Spain nor France have the same religion, or if they do, neither of them ever takes Defender of the Faith.

For preventing them being on opposite sides, you'd need:

• Neither Spain nor France is a Defender of the Faith if they have different religions.
• Neither Spain nor France guarantee or ally anyone the other might attack.
• Neither of Spain or France joins a coalition against the other.
• Neither Spain nor France warn each other.
• Spain and France both retain a block of alliances sufficient that it's not worth either one's while to attack the other.
• Spain and France have different dynasties to each other and to everyone else in Europe.
• Spain and France have no royal marriages with independent countries.

 

[HansBaer]

haha, there you go.
Grommile, you forgot about

• None of the candidates shrinking/blobbing to a point where they won't rival each other anymore

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

Thanks for all the advice, there is just one tiny, little problem: I can't get enough money with just Antwerp... running more or less even. Yeah, I could disband some of my 24 carracks... but do I not need them?
If I can suirvive long enough the gold from Mali in a decade or so may be nice... or the gold in southeast-Africa (if Portugal let me take this) so I am not to afraid of my money problems in the long run. But that doesn't help me now (1590-1600).

During your first years (until you manage to establish Carribean - Chespeake trade route you should be running deficits even in peacetime. I'm always able to repay debt and with Dutch NIs it is relatively easy to control inflation. And if you have problems with France don't release Flanders in initial peace deal at all, take just Antwerpen, leave the rest to Spanish and take as much money as you can instead. That way French are guaranteed to hate Spanish more, because they want Flanders too. So they won't give them MA and vice versa.
I also suggest declaring war against North American tribes too - you have casus beli, because Dutch have exploration ideas complete. They can be milked to help you through this initial period.

 

[Thurak]

The money problem more or less solved itself when I loaded the game today. Same settings as last night ans suddenly I had 10 bucks more per month. What's up? Trade routes from the Carribean... nah, with constant fear of war I won't spread my ships thin, I need them close to home and forwarding a sh**load of money from Bordeaux home works well enough - for starters.

But as I don't know (yet?) or how I can try to make grommiles points work I am probably going to learn by constant failures .

Ahhh, it's too bad to have a navy that crushes (and captures) tons of French and Spanish ships, just to loose your mainland to the enemy. Last time Ostfriesland attacked me, France joined and later Austria as well and of course Spain did not wait for long. Ostfriesland went from alliance to war within a year or two .

Maybe... after a few more shots at this today I should try to learn the game a bit more with easier nations, first. There is still time to come back to my most favorite EU III (where the whole France/Dutch alliance was easier to get) scenario later.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

Well stealing trade from Bordeaux is good starting strategy - if you don't want France as an ally. Since I always worked hard to keep good relations with them I never even touched Bordeaux node.

 

[Thurak]

uh, where is that documented? Missed that