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High Elder Ash

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So this should be a completed Pannonia, Bohemia, Moravia.

Religious
Screenshot_67.png
Political
Screenshot_66.png
Government
Screenshot_68.png

@EldarPanic

Those counties haven't been touched. I will make them Orthodox when I do those areas.

@TheDovahkiin97

900 is out of the scope of this mod. Keep notes though. I might have to expand it.
I don't think too much of Pannonia should be converted from Avar to Slavic/Ruman, the land was rather depopulated and it's not about if there were Slavic peoples here, but what was the majority culture of the provinces. I suppose this sorta invalidates what I said, but, why are you making all that land orthodox and Ruman?
 

duderino

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I don't think too much of Pannonia should be converted from Avar to Slavic/Ruman, the land was rather depopulated and it's not about if there were Slavic peoples here, but what was the majority culture of the provinces. I suppose this sorta invalidates what I said, but, why are you making all that land orthodox and Ruman?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avar_Khaganate

The Khaganate in the Middle and Late periods was a product of cultural symbiosis between Slavic and original Avar elements with a Slavic language as a lingua franca or the most common language.[24]

https://www.academia.edu/227792/The...c_notes_of_an_archaeologist_turned_historian_
 

Asakhra

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Hi :) It's good to see someone trying to do this again: I've always wanted to see one of these 769 conversions of HIP take flight. Some time ago, I did some effort-posts on the Byzantine Empire/southern Balkans setup for an earlier attempt to create a 769 start date for HIP, Vaguely More Historical. Would you be interested in seeing them?
 

duderino

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Hi :) It's good to see someone trying to do this again: I've always wanted to see one of these 769 conversions of HIP take flight. Some time ago, I did some effort-posts on the Byzantine Empire/southern Balkans setup for an earlier attempt to create a 769 start date for HIP, Vaguely More Historical. Would you be interested in seeing them?

Absolutely.
 

Asakhra

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Well, here they are, then. Part one, focussing on the Byzantine Empire as it was in 769. It ought to be said that some of the governmental records that we have for the period aren't complete, and so there is a certain amount of fuzziness around some of the internal borders of the Empire; I'll point those out below.

Presenting the Byzantine Empire and the Sklaviniai (more on them below as well) in 769. Borders are in white, with national borders solid and internal borders in dashes; vassals are in blue; independent realms in red.

P9T6hnf.png


The Empire is in a state of administrative flux at this point, with the process of thematisation (that is to say, the merger of the civilian and military governance of each district; in previous periods of the Roman Empire, these two spheres had been strictly separate) that started in the Anatolian provinces as a measure to bolster defenses against the Caliphate now spreading westward into the Empire's European provinces. This process is not complete; it has occurred in Thrace, Sicily, Cephallenia, and Hellas, which are fully-fledged Themes under a Strategos who controls both military and civilian administration, but Sardinia, the city-states of the Adriatic, the Aegean Islands, and the coastal cities of Macedonia (including Thessalonica) are under a welter of Dukes, Eparchs, Judges, Magisters Militum, and Droungarioi. The general upshot of this is that these areas are still largely ruled by either civilian or military government, not the merger of the two that characterised the Theme system.

I'll discuss how I think each individual non-thematised part should be represented, but as a general rule of thumb, I would say each county should have a province modifier, "Civilian administration" or "Military administration," and that these modifiers should respectively lower the amount of levies/retinue from the province while increasing tax revenue OR increase the amount of levies/retinue from the province while reducing tax revenue. The Emperor should have some decisions available as time goes by to reform the non-thematised provinces into Themes (if they so choose), which would place them under "normal" feudal governance, removing the republican governments that some of them have, and remove the province modifiers. If the provinces are lost to the Empire, the modifiers should disappear also.

Thessalonica is at this point ruled by the Eparch, a position that is the (much-reduced) direct descendant of the Praetorian Prefect of Illyricum. The Eparch was a civilian official appointed from Constantinople; his position might be best represented by making Thessalonica a duchy title with no vassals and having the Eparch appointed from Constantinople, as is normal for Viceroys. At your discretion, you could give him Veria and Thessalia as vassals, but the Eparch's powers were very limited and the coastal cities largely independent at this time, so perhaps not. Thessalonica has the Civilian Administration modifier.

Veria and Larissa are fairly similar in terms of their situation at this time; the largest of a number of cities running down the coast of Thessaly, under tenuous Byzantine control. The cities are largely autonomous and self-governing, survivors of the old system of semi-autonomous city-states, and so should be ruled by their mayors as republics (county-level ones, not duchy-level merchant republics; we don't need them making trading posts all over the place). They might be under Thessalonica, but it would possibly be more accurate to have them as direct vassals of the Emperor, to reflect their near-total autonomy. They have the Civilian Administration modifier.

The Drungaries of the Aegean Sea and the Gulf are a pair of regional naval commands formed from the breakup of the large naval command of the Karabisianoi; they are at this stage independent of all the Anatolian Themes, including the Theme of the Cibyrrhaeots, the other successor to the Karabisianoi. The Drungary of the Gulf may have Crete under his command; we'll return to this topic under Crete's heading. The Droungos of the Aegean Sea is actually quite a bit larger than the one province it has on this map, but the other parts of its territory, Chios and the Northern Sporades, are parts of other in-game provinces whose capitals were securely under the rule of different commands and Themes. The Drungaries of the Aegean Sea and the Gulf are the direct ancestors of the later Themes of the Aegean Sea and Samos, respectively, and the Emperor should be able to create those Themes at some point via decision, granting them bits of mainland Anatolia. The territories of the two Drungaries should have the Military Administration modifier.

Sardinia at this point is not thematised, and never will be, as it is lost to the Empire before the theme system spreads that far. Sardinia is a regular civilian province, ruled by a Judge who sits in Caralis; its military affairs are handled by a Duke, who rules in Forum Traiani, the modern Fordongianus, which is in Arborea county. Sardinia is, unfortunately, perhaps best represented in-game as a feudal duchy, since making it a duchy-level republic would also turn it into a merchant republic, which it certainly was not. Three of its counties should have Civilian Administration; Arborea should have Military Administration.

Venice and the Dalmatian city-states were at this point much like Veria and Larissa; fairly autonomous city-states, locally ruled and connected to the Empire only by naval power. The Theme of Dalmatia did not exist at this point, and so each of the states should be a county or barony directly under the Emperor. They should all be mayoral/republican, not feudal. Venice was already a great trading state at this time, and so should perhaps be a duchy, but that's up to you. They should all have the Civilian Administration modifier.

Dyrrachium is in a similar situation, the chief difference being that it's Greek rather than Latin. Mayoral/republican government, Civilian Administration.

Naples is very complicated, in a manner that I explained on the map itself; it is itself somewhat disloyal to the Empire, but its theoretical vassals, Amalfi and Gaeta, are considerably more loyal. You could represent the latter two states as vassals of Naples or as counties under the Theme of Sicily. Up to you, really. Naples and the other cities of the Duchy should have neither Civilian or Military Administration; civil and military authority had already merged in these provinces even without the Theme system.

Crete is poorly attested at this time. Prior to the Muslim conquest of the island, its exact governmental status is unclear. It may have been its own province, as it was in Late Roman times (in which case, it should be much like Sardinia - a feudal duchy with Civilian Administration), part of the Theme of Hellas, or part of the Droungos of the Gulf (in which case it should have Military Administration).

Abasgia and Lazica were a pair of Georgian principalities subject to the Empire. They should be feudal and hereditary, not Viceregal. No Civilian or Military Administration modifiers here.

The Balearic Islands and Cyprus, the edges of the Byzantine Empire, are in fairly similar situations despite their geographic distance; they are both co-dominions, ruled in part by the Empire and part by another power (in the case of Cyprus, the Abbasid Caliphate; for the Baleares, the Umayyads of Andalus). How you represent that is up to you. Vanilla CK2 has Cyprus split in half between the Abbasids and the Byzantines; that might work but it seems a bit clumsy to me.

Lastly for the Empire, we have the Frontier Zone or No Man's Land between the Caliphate and the Empire in Eastern Anatolia. This was an area of constant raiding and counter-raiding under the firm rule of neither power. There isn't really a way to represent that sort of anarchy in CK2; you could perhaps give the northern two provinces to Byzantium, the southern one to the Abbasids, and make all three provinces start out with Depopulation, as if they'd been hit by plague.

The other independent realms as shown on the map are the Sklaviniai, the small realms of various South Slavic tribes that existed on Byzantine territory. Unlike the larger and more independent Slavic polities further north, the Sklaviniai were somewhat politically affiliated with the Empire in a way that's hard to represent in CK2; their rulers were often appointed or confirmed by the Emperor, the territories in which they could settle were affirmed or approved by the Emperor, they sometimes fought in the Empire's wars (and just as often fought against the Empire), and the campaigns that the Byzantines fought against them at times are usually described as campaigns against rebels, rather than against outside enemies. They exist somewhere in between vassals and independent states, and my suggestion to model them would be to make them Tributaries to Byzantium. Some of the Sklaviniai would become part of Bulgaria over the next several decades, and some would become part of the Empire; they are realms on short notice in 769.

A final note on culture and religion; while the ruling class of each realm should be as they are laid out in my map, I don't really think the religious or cultural province setup should be changed much (if at all) from how it already is in the Old Gods start date. The Sklaviniai were generally very small in number and the areas they dominated usually seem to have been majority Greek or Albanian at the time.
 

Asakhra

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And here is part two, on things further north:

tagZcsu.png


The borders of the last map are in yellow, as are notes on the baronies controlled by Byzantium in the territories covered by this map; everything else is in the same colour scheme as before. There is also a large green line where I got the Avar borders magnificently wrong to start with, and had to fix them. Ignore the green line.

A correction to the old map: I actually missed out one of the sklaviniai, the tribe of the Baiounitai, in central Epirus. They have been added to the map.

I'm less sure of a lot of the details of this map than the previous, because our sources aren't as good for this area as they are for the territory of the Empire. Some notes on the entities herein:

The Drugubites of this map, based near Philippopolis, are a related group to the Drugubite sklavinia from the previous map, but not the same group. These ones, along with the Timochani (who may actually already be part of the Bulgarian state at this time) and the Moravtsi, are perhaps best represented as tributary to the Bulgars.

Zachlumia, the Narentani, Duklja, and Travunija are all small tribal polities bordering the Adriatic. At this time, they were well known for their piracy and made communication between the Byzantine city-states in the Adriatic and the capital difficult. Essentially these are proto-Croats. The province borders on the map aren't the same as their actual domains, because the provinces aren't shaped quite right to fit their real-life borders; I'm approximating as best I can. Duklja may have been in the Byzantine orbit at this time (perhaps a tributary?), but the others were all quite independent.

The Berziti were a sklavinia of sorts, apparently also in the orbit of the Bulgars. Culturally, most likely Serbian. They get absorbed by the Bulgarians over the next few decades.

There is evidence that Serdica/Sofia may actually still have been in Byzantine hands in 769. It was not a contiguous area of rule with the other Byzantine lands in the south Balkans, as most of what had been Macedonia and Thrace was certainly in the hands of the Sklaviniai, but the fortress of Serdica appears to have remained in Eastern Roman hands until 809, when it was taken by the Bulgarians. Perhaps a highly autonomous duchy under Byzantine rule, with the Military Administration modifier?

The Bulgarian Khanate stretches across both sides of the Danube. Its rulers are currently still Turkic (that is to say, Bolghar culture), Tengriist, and somewhat culturally separate from their South Slavic subjects, but the cultures are merging. They've just finished a somewhat inconclusive war with the Byzantines in which the Empire retook Anchialos but was unable to hold much territory beyond that, so a truce between the two is appropriate. The present Khan is Telerig, who took the throne in 768 after the assassination of his predecessor Pagan. He is perhaps best known for getting all the Byzantine spies in his court to accidentally reveal themselves via a ruse, and so should certainly be represented as a high-Intrigue ruler. His only campaign against the Empire seems to have been a failure, though, so perhaps not much of a Martial character. Claims on some of the counties further north, especially the county of Galaz, may be appropriate. You could also push the Khanate's borders somewhat further north to cover the rest of Wallachia, but there were supposedly a fair few independent tribes (Slavic and/or Vlach) in the area at the time, so leaving them outside the Khanate's control could also be appropriate.

I am very uncertain about the actual borders of the Avar Khanate in Pannonia. The border on the map with the Lombards of Italy is fairly certain, and the border with Bavaria is also probably right? Beyond that, though, I'm really not sure. The Avars lost control of the Adriatic part of their domain a few decades prior to 769, but may have regained it by this point, hence my uncertainty on the map. They apparently controlled territory stretching almost up to the northern Carpathians and a thin strip stretching into what is now Transylvania. As with the Bulgarians, you could conceivably go beyond the borders on this map and push their boundaries up to the Carpathian mountains, but it might also be appropriate to have the leftover provinces as independent South Slavic/Vlach states, as there were apparently a lot of small independent tribes and things in the area at the time.

The early Serb state is a fairly recent founding, and we don't know who the ruler was at this time. They are in tenuous alliance with the Byzantines against the Bulgars, not that it's possible to represent that sort of alliance with CK2 diplomacy :-/ Its exact borders are very unclear. Certainly it didn't go as far north as Sirmium or as far south as Prizren. I've more or less represented it by putting it in the blank space between powers with more certain locations and borders. Like most of the Slavs at this point, they're pagan, not Christian.

----

Something I would possibly consider for representing this region is to merge the Croat, Serb, and Bulgarian cultures into one South Slav culture ("Sclavene"?), and have them break up over the next century or so into their respective cultures, like Norse does in vanilla CK2. I've put in notes like "proto-Croat" or "Serb" above, but in a way these don't really make much sense at this time, as the South Slavic languages were (I believe) largely undifferentiated in the late 8th century. This may be something you should take advice on from better scholars of the region, though; I am hardly an expert on the development of the Slavic languages.
 

theKing1988

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Before duderino gets confused, those provinces.bmp are from before both Italy and the HRE got reoverhauled. So the provinces in Italy and in modern day Austria etc. won't match with what you are seeing now.

Also, you are limited by the code in how many Republican vassals that you can give a realm like the Byzantine Empire and non-Republican city vassals are not playable, so if i were you i would give them to a Castle vassal instead to keep them playable.

Other than that, Asakhra's overview is terrifically informative for you.
 
Last edited:

Ese Khan

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A general modding advice from a long-time SWMH contributor: things like culture shift, melting pot, etc. take time to consider, implement, and test, so I recommend that you (collectively speaking) focus on character and realm setup.

For submods, cultural and religious setup, especially if it’s going to involve new culture and events, can and should be developed at a later point when you are done with the basics!
 

TheDovahkiin97

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Essentially these are proto-Croats.
Thank you! Can somebody pls correct this in 867?

as the South Slavic languages were (I believe) largely undifferentiated in the late 8th century.
Im sure its even far from 9th century but the hungarian invasion seems to be an ideal event for the massive slavic breakup rather on cultural basis as on linguistic basis. Also bulgar rulers should all be cristian at this point and merging into local population.
 

EU3NOOB

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I want to hear what @EU3NOOB says about that before I change it. It was at his direction that I changed it.

Really, it was MY responsibility for the change?

...

...

I CAN'T HANDLE THE PRESSURE!!! AAAHHRGH!!!

*has an existential crisis*


*coughs*

Anyway, I would refer to my post where I talked about a province modifier that would represent the lack of unity that the Slavs faced in the 8th century.

Indeed, had the Romans succeeded in resecuring the Danube Frontier by the early 9th century (which was attempted and nearly succeeded; if not for the screw ups of the then Emperor) what had become Bulgaria might have become a second Bulwark of Eastern Roman civilization full of loyal tax paying citizens ripe for military recruitment. This possibility came to an end in the mid-9th century when the Bulgarian Khanate converted to Christianity and became the Bulgarian Tsardom. This created a unifying factor for the Slavic tribes, former Romans, and Turkic Bulgars to resist Roman civilization and create a Bulgarian civilization.

In short, Slavic Bulgarian culture should only show up once there is a kingdom tier ruler (Bulgar or slavic) that has converted to a reformed/organized religion (any form of mainstream Christianity, Islam, or a reformed Pagan Faith). The goal is to create that unifying factor and Christianity was hardly unique in that regard, it was just the easiest option.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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Slavic Bulgarian culture should only show up once there is a kingdom tier ruler (Bulgar or slavic) that has converted to a reformed/organized religion
So should there be bolghar provinces in the balkans? Or just bolghars ruling over south slavs and melting with them in 900 when all rulers are cristian?

I would love to hear the opinion of a bulgarian local on this
 

High Elder Ash

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He didnt change anything there, also romanians are amongst the first people to adopt christianity in the area.So I dont see anything worng with those images.
I just didn't realize Romanians were that influential then, I thought they weren't really a people till like, the 1500s. I don't know much about that area, though, so excuse my ignorance, I shouldn't have said anything really.
 

EU3NOOB

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So should there be bolghar provinces in the balkans? Or just bolghars ruling over south slavs and melting with them in 900 when all rulers are cristian?

I would love to hear the opinion of a bulgarian local on this

1) Perhaps the two provinces south of the mouth of the Danube river that were pretty heavily repopulate during the late 6th and 7th centuries and were central to the Bulgars maintaining their cavalry dominated martial culture due to the terrain being perfect for horse grazing.

2) Not necessarily Christian (perhaps they convert to Islam or reform Tengri or Slavic Pagan; gotta allow for human player shenanigans after all!) but mostly yeah. But it has to be a King tier ruler otherwise any lower tier ruler would likely look to Constantinople and gradually be subsumed into Imperial culture and even if he doesn't look South the ordinary people probably will as he probably won't be strong enough to hold off Imperially supported settlers, with some local Slavs being settled in the East.

And if the Empire reconquers Moesia in or around 800 AD then by 900 AD, without a local unifying factor of a Christian Bulgarian Tsardom, most of the area will return to being of a Roman culture. The area won't be particularly valuable yet though. By the time of Basil II Moesia would likely be an integral part of the Empire once more.

While, yes, this isn't the historical outcome, it is a likely outcome and should be taken into account when creating the 769 AD scenario.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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What about a setup like this?

It could work like the norse/saxon melting pot in 900.
I would not make tarnovo bolghar it seems unlikely to me.
And if bolghars dont hold the kingdom in 900 the south slavic provinces could split up in greek romanian and albanian.
Any opinions?
Like this?

Or a new south slavic culture based on serbs named "Trački" (Thracian)?
 
Last edited:

Viralworld

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Does the Clausewitz Editor work with CK2 in any capacity or is @duderino doing this manually through the files? I only ask because making more earlier historical bookmarks for SMWH/HIP could be a fun albeit time consuming (just what I need) project to take on.
 

duderino

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So much to read. I'm at work, but I've read through everything so far. I'll get to answering specific things in a few hours. I'm on vacation next week so hopefully I can start making some faster progress then.
 

EldarPanic

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What about a setup like this?
Bender ,Basarabia, Constanta, Ialomita, Turnu, Karvuna, Preslav, Tarnovo - Bolghar
Barlad- Romanian
Kran- South Slavic since its near the mountains
I'm not bulgarian but I think this would be a good set-up of the region.

The reason why I'm thinking this way is because these areas are farmlands, plains, so it would be hard for the local people to defend, so they would flee to the mountains and forrest and return when the threat has been dealt with. Also it would be nice if a Bulgarian could comment on this so OP could have a better understanding of the area.

I just didn't realize Romanians were that influential then, I thought they weren't really a people till like, the 1500s. I don't know much about that area, though, so excuse my ignorance, I shouldn't have said anything really.
The first independent Romanian country was in 1325 -1330 so thats kinda off by 170 years also I agree that Romanians werent influential in the 8th century, I mean they existed, they were mainly shepards living in the mountains due to constant migration by the steppe people, and yea they werent influential in the sense that they were a powerhouse in Europe but they existed as a people. Hope this sheds some light on the situation.
 
Last edited:

TheDovahkiin97

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Bender ,Basarabia, Constanta, Ialomita, Turnu, Karvuna, Preslav, Tarnovo - Bolghar
Barlad- Romanian
Kran- South Slavic since its near the mountains
This is almost the same as my picture. Bender to be bolghar instead of russian would be ok for me but i doubt that bolghars outnumbered tarnovo slavs.
The province is just too big.
This would make 7 provinces to be bolghar which is already quite much...