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Wehrwolf81

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Maybe it was too much generalisation, but my point stands, only a minority of Italians really showed fighting spirit during engagements of WW2 (even more if you take the aforementioned bad leadership and bad equipment into consideration), of course there are exceptions from the rule. The veterancy bonus of the Italian volunteers feels wrong for me, even if the Bersaglieri Regiment in that case performed well. Seems like they were determined, so 1 star veterancy might be sufficient in order to portray their performance in an adequate way, but 2 stars like the one unit in phase C for me seems overdone. I'd rather have at least 1 star fusiliers in the recon tab or 1 star Grenadiere in the infantry tab...

Beside the specific 716. ID related, allow me a few general notes:
Overall I find Axis infantry pretty much underwhelming in Steel Division. I know, in that late stage of the war, a lot of rookies had to be enlisted and Germany was really short in manpower due to the terrible losses at the eastern front, but nevertheless there had been also a lot of German veterans of the different war theatres in the ranks of the newly formed divisions in France. Often platoons were mixed (a few vets together with draftees) in order to boost or enhance their performance. Many Allied Divisions have elite infantry in SD '44, allthough only a minority had real combat experience before the landing in Normandy '44. Of course this is no generalisation, there were exceptions, but right now Allied divisions seem to have access to much better infantry than Axis in SD 44, which I don't really understand. Especially the regular Panzergrenadiere don't perform well, allthough they should have much more suppressing power, after all they are equipped with 2x MGs 42!
I also wonder why Osttruppen lack ammo for their MG, compared to regular infantry troops.
I very much prefer to use Osttruppen, rather than Ersatztruppen, the latter being only armed with carabines and therefore pretty much useless. I can understand the disheartened penalty of the Osttruppen, but why do they lack ammo for the MG?!
 
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TheDeadlyShoe

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why dont you just use the vet grenadiers instead of osttruppen if you want vet?

Pegasus gets plenty of double vet stosstrupp and single vet grenadiers and single vet s.mg42.

Panzergrens do get tons of firepower, their main downside is price.

The allied divisions that get great infantry are typically weak in other areas. Ie 2div's best tank is a no-vet m4a1-rhino - very similar to Luftlande, which also gets mediocre tanks but very good elite infantry. 6th airborne gets piles of elite infantry but is regarded by many as the weakest division in the game other than its offmap spam. They also only get mediocre armor.
 
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Makko

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No, in this case they are real "Freiwillige", that is volunteers.

I don't have my notes here, but from memory, the 716. ID's 936. Grenadier-Regiment was nicknamed "Bersaglieri Regiment" because most (or a good number) of its soldiers were former Bersaglieris (or Italian soldiers from other arms) whom m had asked the Germans to let them keep fighting with them, be it under their uniform.

Depending on how bad conditions were in that camp volunteering might not mean very much other then they wanted food and a lesser risk of typhus.

I was thinking they might have been hardcore fascists who wouldn't surrender when their country did and fell back with the germans out of Italy.
 

Karlburg

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Honestly the main thing about this game is that the allied bgs(aside from 101 and 6ab) are more flexible outside their niche- their armored divisions have cheap infantry available, and the infantry divisions have a very solid vehicle game. The german divs are more specialized. I'm not sure why the allied armored divisions have truck guys in phase A when only 12. SS has the same thing- it wouldn't even hugely change the flavor- the germans still have to pay the extra to have pgrens, but at least they wouldn't have to pay for a halftrack, too.
 

Sotahullu

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No, in this case they are real "Freiwillige", that is volunteers.

I don't have my notes here, but from memory, the 716. ID's 936. Grenadier-Regiment was nicknamed "Bersaglieri Regiment" because most (or a good number) of its soldiers were former Bersaglieris (or Italian soldiers from other arms) whom m had asked the Germans to let them keep fighting with them, be it under their uniform.

Hang on one minute! 716. Infanterie Division had 2 Infantry Regiments, 726. and 736. Like any other static division it had only 2 infantry regiments and I have never heard of there being extra regiment attached to it, expect 4 Ost battalions.

In same way, I have never heard of the Bersaglieri regiment.
 

EUG_MadMat

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Hang on one minute! 716. Infanterie Division had 2 Infantry Regiments, 726. and 736. Like any other static division it had only 2 infantry regiments and I have never heard of there being extra regiment attached to it, expect 4 Ost battalions.

In same way, I have never heard of the Bersaglieri regiment.
I was quoting from memory: the "936" might actually the 736. IR.
 

RoyalColor

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Not possible then. 736. was part of the division since founding and could not be formed from Italian volunteers.

It's confirmed information. Dunno about the numbers, but they were numerous enough, to pop out on various unrelated POW photographs. On all photos they wear Italian uniforms. Also apparently most of the drivers in the division truck column were Italians too.

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=48913
 

Wehrwolf81

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Still no reasonable explanation of the exaggerated veterancy of Italian volunteers, if even Eugen writes in the descripotion of the Division, that these were former POWs and only very few fought willingly. You guys can rate down my criticism as much as you like, it's simply immature, because I see no arguments or historic facts to back your dissent up or justify the exaggerated veterancy of these volunteers, while there is not a single German platoon with veterancy in this division... As it seems the veterancy bonus was given purely arbitrary. Which also applies to a lot of Allied divisions with no combat experience at all before the landing at Normandy.
 

Karelian

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As it seems the veterancy bonus was given purely arbitrary. Which also applies to a lot of Allied divisions with no combat experience at all before the landing at Normandy.
While ultimately the stars are certainly handed out with gameplay in mind, the years of total war had severely affected the quality of German training and manpower by summer 1944.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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"On the newspaper "Corriere della Sera" of 31 May 2004 there is an interesting article about the Italians in Normandy.
The info provided are different from those of Nino Arena, in fact the article mentions these units:
- 736. Grenadier Regiment: Italian bersaglieri fought bravely
- 716. Division: Italian truck-drivers from Piedmont, formerly interned in Germany, deserted at the beginning of the attack
- 1261. Artillery Regiment: Italians manned the guns of the 4th battery, in a wood behind the fort of Marcouf in the Utah beach, sank an enemy destroyer
- 1261., 1262., 1709. Artillery Regiments: a third of their soldiers was Italian; they were destroyed fighting against British tanks in Montebourg between 19 and 27 June 1944
- 24 artillery batteries were manned by Italians in first line in Normandy
- there were Italians in the garrison of the island-fortress of Cézembre, near St. Malo. It was terribly bombed, and surrendered on 1st Sept. 1944; among the survivors there were 69 Italians. "

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=48913

70 seconds of googling, c'mon guys
 

Gondie

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While ultimately the stars are certainly handed out with gameplay in mind, the years of total war had severely affected the quality of German training and manpower by summer 1944.

Its just another of this grat momenst where Eugens awsom selectiv realsim kicks in..

12.SS HJ, fought well and hard around Hill112.. Nahhh, germans over all at this time only had bad training, no vet for ther inf!
716.INF Well italien Infanterie wasend the best over all and poorly equiped.. But this one group ther was awsom, lets give them Mass Vet!

And lets not start with our lovly French elit communists that mastert ther shermans in less then 2 month~
Or elit US Inf that faces first real combat~
Vet in this game has more or less no base on realism at all..
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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are you seriously being pissy about Rangers being classed as elite....while complaining the Hitler Youth isn't getting any vet stars? Even though, they in fact do get veteran infantry.

El oh el.
 

IS-2

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I wish this div had Ersatztruppen for ez slow pushing with arty. Those phase C offmaps will come in really handy for these guys I think.

Its just another of this grat momenst where Eugens awsom selectiv realsim kicks in..

12.SS HJ, fought well and hard around Hill112.. Nahhh, germans over all at this time only had bad training, no vet for ther inf!
716.INF Well italien Infanterie wasend the best over all and poorly equiped.. But this one group ther was awsom, lets give them Mass Vet!

And lets not start with our lovly French elit communists that mastert ther shermans in less then 2 month~
Or elit US Inf that faces first real combat~
Vet in this game has more or less no base on realism at all..

Don't forget the Canadian division that never saw combat until Normandy with ALL veteran squads yet the 101st AB in the same situation have no/rarer vet.
 

Gondie

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are you seriously being pissy about Rangers being classed as elite....while complaining the Hitler Youth isn't getting any vet stars? Even though, they in fact do get veteran infantry.

El oh el.

Im pissy that som Inf gets no vet even if they did well, cause of generalization..
Others that where bade in general, get ther vet because they did well..
And if you point it out you get on of them as answer, whatever suites them at this moment.. Its that stupid dubell standart they use..

As mentioned from IS-2, i could have done the same with the CanaidanBros and the 101st..
 

CyberianK

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After trying them for a while today I really appreciate the Lorraine in A and the Inf tank is fun too for support.
And finally a Division that can give Allied Infantry some Counterattacks. Sure Ally Inf is still way better especially Canadians, 2nd Inf and 101 but at least you can try to keep up a bit.
 

Magni56

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If those were "ex"-Bersagliere in the majortiy, then handing out 1-star and rarer 2-star ratings to the Italian Volunteers is entirely appropriate. Bersagliere were an all-volunteer elite outfit with pretty damn stringent recruitment standards, and any group of the, still standing in 1944 would have a significant portion of battle-hardened veterans amongst the ranks. People talk a lot of shit about the Italians, but most italian infantry units were jsut as good as anyone elses outside of equipment issues.

As for the Bersagliere in particular, let's ask ol' Erwin Romel what he thought about the ones under his command:
The German soldier has astonished the world; the Italian Bersagliere has astonished the German soldier.