6 Years Later and the Battleplanner Still Outright Sucks :/

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kaguravitro

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It is worth noting that the unit controller (frontline AI) used to take supply into account in early versions of NSB, but we canned this early for several reasons:

  • It made the 'shuffling' issue significantly worse - units would be relocating up and down frontlines based on situations such as mildly inclement weather.
  • It defeated the reactive gameplay loop of the supply system - if the system load balanced everything, there'd be much less need for strategic offensives and planning.
  • It was quite possible to end up in a situation where the unit controller didn't want to put any units on parts of the frontline. This could be mitigated, but then we were more or less back where we started.
While pre-NSB versions did have some level of supply consideration, the extreme simplicity of that system rendered it a far less problematic tradeoff. Currently I think the need to plan ahead and support your operations plays pretty well.
Frontline system issues don't come of the dispersion is concentration of units, I don't see much concern of that, but the issues appear when they desire to attack, reckless, into a meat grinder. Ai consideration values are bad. They're no self preservation.
I'm not going so deep to claim for the ai to build fallback line in rivers with reserves, but maybe fat frontlines it's not the way.
 
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bERt0r

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I think the Battleplan system is just too smart. It wants to do too many things for the player but it doesn't know what the player intends, thus it's doing things badly.

What the battleplanner currently does reasonably well:
  • Distribute divisions equally across the front.
  • Plug holes in the line, cover pockets and "snaking" maneuvers.
As long as you don't activate a battleplan, it's a great help as long as it is only used for "filler" infantry divisions. It's great at making sure your front lines are covered when you have a moving front. I call this a passive battleplan.

What the battleplanner fails at:
  • Attack/Move units towards the attack line when I activate a battle plan.
Activating a battleplan almost always ends in disaster. Even if as mentioned you have overwhelming firepower, activating that battleplan is likely the most unwise decision to do. Better to just select every unit and click somewhere far behind enemy lines. That way all your units actually move and attack at the same time instead of single divisions starting attacks hoping others will support their attack. Even empty territory is difficult to take with a battleplan. There will be more shuffling across the front than taking new (empty) provinces.

I think it would be better if battleplans worked like this click deep behind the frontline. Calculate a route for each division from it's position to the "offensive line" drawn by the plan and then make everything move at the same time. No need for reshuffling, recalculating, etc. You can have another army with a passive battleplan cover the flanks. It would just be so much more helpful to have a tool that lets you tell an army to actually attack an area instead of this AI general takes over behavior. It would also feel better since the player is more directly responsible for the action.
 
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lihp

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I think the Battleplan system is just too smart. It wants to do too many things for the player but it doesn't know what the player intends, thus it's doing things badly.

Sorry, I disagree 100%.

My suggestion: understand what the battle planner does and work with your tools.

Remark upfront:
In tight spaces, eg. Panama or high attrition provinces (Tundra, Arctic) you only deploy ideally suited units aka high firepower per width (tight provinces) or in high attrition provinces special forces with a low supply need division template and a general with "Winter/Desert specialist" trait. If not available you better micro units in those areas.

The "easy" suggestion to learn the basics:
  1. Set up sufficient infantry divisions along the front line.
    Prime example: Germany vs Soviet Union. For that frontline one needs approximately 4224 infantry width total, which is 96 divisions of 44 width each or 192 divisions of 22 width each. Set to slow forward.
  2. Set up tank divisions in 2nd line behind the infantry. Overall in case Germany vs Soviet Union I suggest 6-8 strong medium divisions and up to 8-18 fast light tank divisions for each of 3-4 generals.
  3. Set the infantry front to slow progress eg some part behind Moscow for North army group, some behind Stalingrad for south army group
  4. Set up the tank armies to progress along supply lines with spearhead to prepare encirclements.
  5. Set the tank armies to aggressive, elite supply and
  6. Check weather and time of year. Starting in November is a bad idea. December is even worse ;).
  7. Hit start.
  8. Enjoy.
  9. While enjoying watch your tank armies:
    Progressing too fast? Hold em.
    Messed up due to huge pockets or unexpected fortifications? Micro.
    Tanks on low Org? Delete tank army battle plan. Retreat close to your own supply depots. Let the infantry progress. Rest your tanks to full Org. Set up a new attack for the tank army.

Thats it - works like a charm, easily. The only thing, which can be painful: deleting the orders of one specific army - there should be a setting, where you see only the orders of the units currently marked active. Everything else works fine.

Are there possible improvements? Yeah, I listed some already like others.

Is the battle planner bad? No, not at all.
Does the battle planner work as intended? Funnily for me yes...
Did it take time to understand the battle planner? Yes. It is not easy-peasy.

PS - Edit: and of course some micro around crucial fronts. But in my case thats really minimal. Most of the times it is just to enforce closing of a pocket.
 
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Harin

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I use the Battle Planner for five things.

  • My number one reason is to quickly set up a front a front line and then turn it off. It at least puts an even number of infantry divisions along the front, then I can move a few divisions around to suit my needs.
  • Rarely, to grab a small number of offensive divisions to push through a defense that needs more vigor, but supply or available units are lacking. I generally select the one problem tile for the attack, which greatly reduces the chance of my attacking divisions going in the wrong direction. In this situation, the bonus your receive to the attack seems to be supply free, but it does cost time.
  • When I have overwhelming superiority and getting bored or tired I will sometimes put a lot of divisions on a Battle Plan and give it orders to take finish the fight for me.
  • Amphibious landings and paradrops, because mandatory, but instantly turn off the battle planner when units land.
The Battle Planner is a useful tool for me, personally, and despite it not living up to my original expectations, it has gotten better, not worse over the years. Since it is so critical to the AI's behavior, constantly improving it is always on top of my wish list.
 
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I'm really hoping that the combat system for Vicky 3 works out. Which basically consists of HoI4 front lines with no micro whatsoever.

Not just to avoid the inability of the AI to handle any of the micro intensive combat systems that are currently out, but also because it encourages systems to be fun and interactive outside of a combat situation.

HoI has so many systems to handle technology, unit design, leaders, logistics, espionage, etc. The usage and immersiveness of the systems is limited because of the level of effort and attention that needs to be paid to the combat system as soon as a large scale war kicks off. No other activity has the level of impact on the war as making sure you don't have your lines mess up.

I've said that I hoped it would happen in other game threads, but maybe we are finally seeing the end of the micro spam combat systems in pdx games.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Unit shuffling is really inefficient. The battle planner is quite bad at it, even "passively"...troops spend way, way too much time off the front and don't move decently to plug gaps (move from too far away, no shuffling). However, it is indeed convenient for distributing troops before a war, or moving between safe locations during wars.

The "easy" suggestion to learn the basics:

You can get better casualty trades than this using nothing but infantry divisions and equal or less total width. That's the difference micro vs battle planner makes.
 
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You can get better casualty trades than this using nothing but infantry divisions and equal or less total width. That's the difference micro vs battle planner makes.

Err no.
 
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It's a falsifiable claim, so falsify it. When I push with battleplanner vs USSR, I routinely take more than 2x the casualties fighting the remaining ~30% or less of their army than I lost vs first 70% of it with micromanagement. Even though it is battered, equipment starved, and at a fraction of its original industry/troop count, activating anything but spearhead orders to create a pocket bleeds casualties.

What kind of casualty ratios are you getting w/o micro or with minimal micro in Barbarossa, mostly just using battle planner? Does setting infantry on "slow advance" imply activating an offensive order? If you do that, you're going to bleed, period.

If by "slow advance" you meant to leave them on the front line and not activate an order, then you can disregard this because I misinterpreted what you said. That's still (a lot) less efficient than micromanagement, but costs less in resources and is a lot better for sanity.
 
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It would be nice to be able to set a minimum and maximum length for a frontline, centered around the median province of an order's objective. I don't know how easy this would be to implement, but micromanaging the length of a frontline is one of the more annoying parts of using the battleplanner.

Even a toggleable setting analogous to the aggressiveness setting - say, 1-2 units per tile for "wide" fronts, 2-3 units per tile for "normal" fronts, and 3-4 units per tile for "concentrated" fronts - would be a significant improvement.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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IIRC in HoI3 you can draw theaters on the map to delineate what army covers which area, although it was purely cosmetic IIRC. Would be great if we can define frontlines in that way so that we can pre-plan which frontline will cover which section after an offensive without ending up with overlaps or gaps.

Plug holes in the line, cover pockets and "snaking" maneuvers.
IMO the battle planner only gets a passing mark for this. As far as I can tell, the battle planner does not cancel "obsolete" orders. On the player side, I've seen divisions walking to their destinations that are already 2-3 provinces away from the front line, or trying to surround pockets that no longer exists. On the AI side, I've seen pointless desperate single division counterattacks that were what I believe to be outdated battle planner orders to reinforce a section of the frontline that has already been pushed back. This happens rather frequently if you do wide (>3 provinces) breakthroughs.
 
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kaguravitro

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It would be nice to be able to set a minimum and maximum length for a frontline, centered around the median province of an order's objective. I don't know how easy this would be to implement, but micromanaging the length of a frontline is one of the more annoying parts of using the battleplanner.

Even a toggleable setting analogous to the aggressiveness setting - say, 1-2 units per tile for "wide" fronts, 2-3 units per tile for "normal" fronts, and 3-4 units per tile for "concentrated" fronts - would be a significant improvement.
with 14 units for general what you want its quiet better, i dnot try with nsb, but i did in la reisistence and i dont see that changing at least a non extreme suplly zone like siberia, its not the lenth its the number of units vs lenth of general front, like for dispersion the density is quiet regular, you need to cut the number of unit to force le shorter front. As you can use a field marshal, instead of 1/4 you get 1/7, but resshufle get really better.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Translation: You want me to teach you how, by ordering me to teach you.

No. Next time ask.
I don't need lessons. A simple screenshot would suffice. I just want to see what assumptions we're working with going in. It would also put some numbers to the assertions about how good the battle planner is (or isn't).
 

bERt0r

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IIRC in HoI3 you can draw theaters on the map to delineate what army covers which area, although it was purely cosmetic IIRC. Would be great if we can define frontlines in that way so that we can pre-plan which frontline will cover which section after an offensive without ending up with overlaps or gaps.


IMO the battle planner only gets a passing mark for this. As far as I can tell, the battle planner does not cancel "obsolete" orders. On the player side, I've seen divisions walking to their destinations that are already 2-3 provinces away from the front line, or trying to surround pockets that no longer exists. On the AI side, I've seen pointless desperate single division counterattacks that were what I believe to be outdated battle planner orders to reinforce a section of the frontline that has already been pushed back. This happens rather frequently if you do wide (>3 provinces) breakthroughs.
What you can do is make a frontline specifically for one army around the area you want to make a breakthrough. Then you push. But even if you don't do it, the battleplan moving some divisions into the gap is better than nothing. Of course it doesn't beat micro but it does an OK job.
 
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lihp

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Making the claim that the battle planner isn't dogshit without providing any evidence when everyone sees how garbage it is.......

"sucks", "garbage", "dogshit"... or "It's a falsifiable claim, so falsify it."... is for some obviously a proper part of a serious discussion...

*shrugs*

 
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TheMeInTeam

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"sucks", "garbage", "dogshit"... or "It's a falsifiable claim, so falsify it."... is for some obviously a proper part of a serious discussion...

Because below is truly riveting "discussion":


And yet, all I asked is that you commit to some numbers from your games to back up your "serious discussion" (lol) of "err no", to give us a picture of how the battleplanner is performing from you, beyond a subjective evaluation of it. I even tried to get you to define your terms and what "good" looks like.

Not only did you not give a screenshot, you wouldn't even type out a casualty ratio, so far.

The most comical thing about your assertion, is calling out a falsifiable claim. Despite that claims *must* be falsifiable if you're in a "serious discussion" where truth is the desired end point.

Maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe you are. One of us has put forth a way to check. So I ask again: what kinds of casualties are you inflicting and taking in Barbarossa? If the battle planner is as good as you say, it should not be scary to give a number...
 
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Hippob4

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I'm really hoping that the combat system for Vicky 3 works out. Which basically consists of HoI4 front lines with no micro whatsoever.

Not just to avoid the inability of the AI to handle any of the micro intensive combat systems that are currently out, but also because it encourages systems to be fun and interactive outside of a combat situation.

HoI has so many systems to handle technology, unit design, leaders, logistics, espionage, etc. The usage and immersiveness of the systems is limited because of the level of effort and attention that needs to be paid to the combat system as soon as a large scale war kicks off. No other activity has the level of impact on the war as making sure you don't have your lines mess up.

I've said that I hoped it would happen in other game threads, but maybe we are finally seeing the end of the micro spam combat systems in pdx games.

To be honest, while I would like to see a more streamlined and manageable approach to warfare, like making Corps the basic on-map unit instead of divisions (and a Corps = 3-5 Divisions + Support Assets like Special Forces, Heavy Independent Tank Battalion a la those Tiger tank groups, etc) and fewer provinces or dividing most states into like 2-3 tiles...

Yeah, I'd be interested to see if a Victoria 3 warfare system could work in HoI5. For one, I think it would give your generals a ton more personality and identity. Instead of them just being 'Stat Modifiers' for your armies that you god-micro, I like the idea of leaving them with the responsibility of warfighting while you the player is in charge of coordinating the war effort, making sure the industries, politicians, agencies, and military staff fall in line.

That's not to say you don't have any say on the warfighting. Maybe you can designate strategic objectives like "The Caucus" or "Guadalcanal" and etc. Maybe for totalitarian regimes you can even activate something like Force Attack and Last Stands to give your armies/generals more buffs temporarily at the cost of straining your general's loyalty and perhaps adding stress on your nation leader that worsens the more you expend 'Influence' on the different military, economic, political actors in the game.

Also, it would be neat if generals had actual character traits and identities because imagine putting Patton in charge. On one hand you can see him play the high risk high reward aggressive style of warfare, but the downsides could be that he sometimes overplays his hand and might suffer more casualties than you/the public would like OR he could get himself in a scandal like the slapping incident and that would also mean you'd have to demote or suspend him temporarily.

Right now in HoI4, there's no meaningful difference between Rommel and a Paulus besides one does more attack damage. Whereas historically their level of initiative and proactiveness was night and day. Something that isn't modeled in HoI4. There's no different 'style' of warfare the generals have, just 'he does more Attack/Defend/Logistics/Planning' which is kinda... dull.

Plus, I'd like to see generals rise in prominence or fall out of favor. I'd like to see something that prevents players from just instantly putting Patton in charge of your best army in 1936 when he only really rose to prominence in 1942-1943 during Operation Torch. He took over Frendenall after his poor performance in the Kasserine Pass, but no one back then expected Frendenall to do poorly and so Patton was chosen to succeed him. In HoI4 there's no reason to ever pick Frendenall for anything besides... garrison duty?

It's why i like EU4 and the other Paradox games. The generals and admirals were unpredictable in stats and quality. I wish HoI4 and HoI5 would have this unpredictability instead of hindsight 20/20 perspective where 'Duh, of course i'm gonna put Patton, Rommel, Zhukov, etc in charge of the best armies in 1936. It's obvious because they have bigger numbers "
 
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