50 AE for taking one province?

[DicRoNero]

Good grief. Will the Coalition go away over time? Or am I stuck with it?

It might take ages. I've just scrapped my Ironman Muscovy game cause of this coalition mismanagement. Once the coalition is formed, it's a PITA to get it dissolved. From my experience even AE decayed to 20 isn't a guarantee a nation will leave. If there's another warmonger nearby, they might switch to him, but that's pretty it.

One tip: don't underestimate AE impact from claim fabrication, it's deadly on its own. So Spymasters+Rivalry all the way.

 

[x260bm]

50 AE for one province is imposible, even with geting cought during fabricating claim. He probably get cought several times during fabrication for several other provinces.

No it isn't. The tool tip is completely wrong in the HRE. Once the emperor asks for the province back he will get another 25 AE on everyone in the empire. Taking one province in the HRE is pretty much an automatic punitive war with half the HRE in 1.5.

 

[emux]

AE & OE is the most accurate aproximation i have seen in a game to the know real problem that countries found when they conquered land by the force of weapons.

Excess generally causes reaction, and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons, or in individuals, or in governments.
Plato

 

[Thund91]

It might take ages. I've just scrapped my Ironman Muscovy game cause of this coalition mismanagement. Once the coalition is formed, it's a PITA to get it dissolved. From my experience even AE decayed to 20 isn't a guarantee a nation will leave. If there's another warmonger nearby, they might switch to him, but that's pretty it.

One tip: don't underestimate AE impact from claim fabrication, it's deadly on its own. So Spymasters+Rivalry all the way.

+1.

Just had to ragequit out of my Hansa Ironman game because of coalition spam.

I managed to get through the first war with minimal losses.

Second war of Pommerania, Austria, Hesse, Munster, Brandeburg, and Altmark sealed my fate.

 

[beckermt]

peace deal one that list countries and how much AE you will get with each of them

That one works.

People don't seem to have realized that conquering inside the HRE, an institution specifically designed to protect minor states from their neighbors, is a Bad Idea.

I welcome the change. HRE gets way too blobby otherwise. Can't pass reforms if you come to the Emperor game late, because the AI didn't prioritize anti-blobbing wars.

 

[clykke]

Taking one province in the HRE is pretty much an automatic punitive war with half the HRE in 1.5.

This is not even close to being true. As I said earlier, I've conquered all of Italy with Tuscany without being attacked even once by a coalition.

 

[milkan]

I think there must be other factors. I am also sure your playing in Hard difficulty which increases AE by 50% for the player.

 

[Yenzen]

I've started just vassalizing everything I possibly can and vassal feeding as much as possible. It saves a lot of adm power in the long run and the core times are whacky anyway.

 

[IndoEsia45]

I've only got a coalition of hordes when I annexed Kazan in one swoop as Muscovy. But after 10-20 years, they disbanded themselves as expected. Nogai, Golden Horde and Uzbek if I remember became involved in another war with Ottoman Empire and Crimea, so there was nothing the coalition could actually do anyway. Is the 10-20 years timeframe actually the problem here?

 

[AlphaSonic]

Playing as Siena i've conquered half Italy, including Tuscany and the maximum AE I received was 30 AE because I annexed 3 Neapolitan provincies, the members of the HRE got 15 AE. Instead of warmongering all day, all night you'd try to wait before you conquer another province. With maximum prestige and the better relations over time advisor in 3/4 thats -12 AE more or less

 

[brifbates]

Taking one province in the HRE is pretty much an automatic punitive war with half the HRE in 1.5.

And yet I managed to go Bavaria->Germany in less than 150 years without ever fighting a coalition... Something does not compute.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

Yeah, the AE in HRE is pretty high, but it's not that bad as original poster claims. The game needs to simulate the fact that many minor states existed in HRE without being swallowed by their neighbors. Higher AE and unlawful provinces are way to do that. Also you should be allied to great powers that are likely to be pissed off because of your conquest - allies don't accumulate AE and even if coalition forms you'd be able to defeat them with your ally help.

 

[unmerged(635163)]

I started a new game in 1.5 as muscovy, after a hiatus playing CK2, to check this new AE. At this moment, I feel the AE has been well executed by paradox: first war with novgorod, and I get about 78.5 AE with them (I took 100% worth of WS in provinces, to release the biggest finland).
I had annexed Tver beforehand with minimal AE: 11.2 and I had allied/RM Poland.
Novogorod subsequantly forms a coalition against me, and sweden goes from "friendly" to "outraged" with -30 relation, I quickly dispatch a diplomat to stockholm.
No one else joins the coalition (maybe it's because sweden and lithuania are still under PU and can't join by themselves? That would be a nice exploit): no hordes, not the livonian order.
Second war with novgorod, I snatch the rest of the territories and novogorod is now left to one province (novogorod): another 50 AE.
During the peace time, sweden had gone back from outraged to friendly +50 with my diplomat, poland is still allied and "cordial", denmark and lithuania have rivaled me.
Ryazan joins the coalition, which looks pretty normal as they are my closest neighbor, still no hordes, no LO, though I have generated about 130 AE total.
Third war with novogorod, I take their last province. Ryazan is still in the coalition against me.
I end the game here as I have forgotten to guarantee ryazan again after the last coalition war (novogorod-ryazan) and the golden horde is attacking them.
All in all, it looks fine AE wise: countries which are friendly don't join coalitions, countries which are far away don't join the coalition.
I'll continue this game tonight taking care of the hordes and see the results:: ie will the ottomans or timurids join a coalition against me if I beat up Kazan (normal (and painful) behaviour in 1.3.x games)

 

[IndoEsia45]

I started a new game in 1.5 as muscovy, after a hiatus playing CK2, to check this new AE. At this moment, I feel the AE has been well executed by paradox: first war with novgorod, and I get about 78.5 AE with them (I took 100% worth of WS in provinces, to release the biggest finland).
I had annexed Tver beforehand with minimal AE: 11.2 and I had allied/RM Poland.
Novogorod subsequantly forms a coalition against me, and sweden goes from "friendly" to "outraged" with -30 relation, I quickly dispatch a diplomat to stockholm.
No one else joins the coalition (maybe it's because sweden and lithuania are still under PU and can't join by themselves? That would be a nice exploit): no hordes, not the livonian order.
Second war with novgorod, I snatch the rest of the territories and novogorod is now left to one province (novogorod): another 50 AE.
During the peace time, sweden had gone back from outraged to friendly +50 with my diplomat, poland is still allied and "cordial", denmark and lithuania have rivaled me.
Ryazan joins the coalition, which looks pretty normal as they are my closest neighbor, still no hordes, no LO, though I have generated about 130 AE total.
Third war with novogorod, I take their last province. Ryazan is still in the coalition against me.
I end the game here as I have forgotten to guarantee ryazan again after the last coalition war (novogorod-ryazan) and the golden horde is attacking them.
All in all, it looks fine AE wise: countries which are friendly don't join coalitions, countries which are far away don't join the coalition.
I'll continue this game tonight taking care of the hordes and see the results:: ie will the ottomans or timurids join a coalition against me if I beat up Kazan.

Well I think this explains why expanding in HRE is difficult. There are so many states in close proximity + HRE relation modifier.

 

[brifbates]

Well I think this explains why expanding in HRE is difficult. There are so many states in close proximity + HRE relation modifier.

There's also a lot of same culture/culture group and, in the early game, same religion. Those multipliers all add up so you will generally get a double base AE hit against several HRE nations if you are an HRE nation gobbling an HRE province. Still, as was noted earlier in the thread, this caps at 30 AE in normal difficulty if you are land-grabbing with no claim...

 

[Tub]

That one works.

People don't seem to have realized that conquering inside the HRE, an institution specifically designed to protect minor states from their neighbors, is a Bad Idea.

I welcome the change. HRE gets way too blobby otherwise. Can't pass reforms if you come to the Emperor game late, because the AI didn't prioritize anti-blobbing wars.

Here's the real humdinger though - it doesn't prevent blobbing in the HRE. In my games, Munster (the German one) has consistently taken three or four provinces around it, and avoided the kind of huge coalition a player would get for taking two. I've seen Bohemia eat minors, Austria eat minors, Venice eat minors, Brandenburg swallow up almost the entirety of Pomerania + those North German landlocked minors, and none of them were 'cut down to size' by coalitions.

One thing I don't see is small nations get big. Because they don't have the resources to take on a large coalition, and the only way to get those resources is to expand, they're caught in a kind of Catch 22. Play as a big nation, however, and you'll be able to beat off coalitions left, right and centre, because of your initial base of power - so, essentially, 1.5 makes playing smaller nations not impossible, but extremely boring.

Also, the peace screen does not work when displaying AE. It displays base AE, but not the modifiers affecting the opinion of others that are applied to that base - so in the HRE, if a tooltip says that you'll get 15 AE for taking a province, you'll actually be getting a -30 modifier, plus the 'Unlawful Territory' -25 modifier. As well as the 'outraged' attitude everybody who isn't your ally will get - and of course, if you do have allies, they might change to 'outraged' and break the alliance with you too.

 

[brifbates]

Also, the peace screen does not work when displaying AE. It displays base AE, but not the modifiers affecting the opinion of others that are applied to that base - so in the HRE, if a tooltip says that you'll get 15 AE for taking a province, you'll actually be getting a -30 modifier, plus the 'Unlawful Territory' -25 modifier. As well as the 'outraged' attitude everybody who isn't your ally will get - and of course, if you do have allies, they might change to 'outraged' and break the alliance with you too.

If you mouse over the base AE listed on the peace screen a list of the final AE value with various nations will pop up.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

One thing I don't see is small nations get big. Because they don't have the resources to take on a large coalition, and the only way to get those resources is to expand, they're caught in a kind of Catch 22. Play as a big nation, however, and you'll be able to beat off coalitions left, right and centre, because of your initial base of power - so, essentially, 1.5 makes playing smaller nations not impossible, but extremely boring.

I think the problem is large countries joining coalitions against small countries, that expand agressively. It doesn't make sense, that large country would be worried about OPM gaining another province or 2. So I believe only countries with equal or weaker strength should be able to join coalitions. Basically you have 3 main tiers of countries - equal (those that are rivaled), weaker (domineering attitude) or stronger (threatened attitude). So domineering countries, or better said countries with power that would be able to domineer you, shouldn't join coalitions against you. Such system would make expanding easier for small powers, but more difficult for big ones.

 

[Zakath]

I don't really think the AE is broken, or even an issue, if you play a bit careful.

You can no longer expect to go on a conquering rampage as soon as your manpower has recovered, but you can actually take a province or two every decade or so. As has been said many times in the thread, keep your diplomats busy while conquering in the HRE. If they aren't fabricating a claim, sealing an alliance, arranging a marriage or delivering a gift they'd better be busy just improving relations. Keep relation with your neighbours positive and you'll have far fewer outraged coalition members to content with. This applies to large countries as well, even a blobby Brandenburg can be taken down after a coalition war or two, it's happened to me before.

 

[Tub]

I think the problem is large countries joining coalitions against small countries, that expand agressively. It doesn't make sense, that large country would be worried about OPM gaining another province or 2. So I believe only countries with equal or weaker strength should be able to join coalitions. Basically you have 3 main tiers of countries - equal (those that are rivaled), weaker (domineering attitude) or stronger (threatened attitude). So domineering countries, or better said countries with power that would be able to domineer you, shouldn't join coalitions against you. Such system would make expanding easier for small powers, but more difficult for big ones.

Ideally, it would work like this. It doesn't make sense for Austria, France, and Denmark, nations that can field over one hundred thousand men between them, 'team up' to attack, say, Koln - any one of those powers could attack it individually, yet they feel the need to join the coalition against them.

If you mouse over the base AE listed on the peace screen a list of the final AE value with various nations will pop up.

I've never seen that, I'll have to look more closely next time.

I don't really think the AE is broken, or even an issue, if you play a bit careful.

You can no longer expect to go on a conquering rampage as soon as your manpower has recovered, but you can actually take a province or two every decade or so. As has been said many times in the thread, keep your diplomats busy while conquering in the HRE. If they aren't fabricating a claim, sealing an alliance, arranging a marriage or delivering a gift they'd better be busy just improving relations. Keep relation with your neighbours positive and you'll have far fewer outraged coalition members to content with. This applies to large countries as well, even a blobby Brandenburg can be taken down after a coalition war or two, it's happened to me before.

I'd be fine with doing this, if only the AI had to do the same thing. The AI gets lower AE than the player in every case - they also seem to get their claims discovere much less frequently, and if a coalition forms against them, unless they've made some pretty serious enemies, it'll only be of a few local minors. Call confirmation bias all you want, but I've seen an aggressive Brunswick with two provinces taken and about eight claims on surrounding provinces by 1456, and they're still at 0 AE.