50-100 Years behind the Technology Curve.

[unmerged(1744)]

I have played 2 IGC's in the last few weeks until around 1700's or so, one as England and one as Sweden. In both games, I've noticed that Tech progression is about 50-100 years behind 'schedule'. For example, in my game as Sweden, I just hit 1702 and have yet to get 'Muskets'. I am in 2nd place (and just barely) for Land Tech so I know its not just me lagging behind.

The same goes for Naval Tech, and to a lesser extent for Trade/Infra. About the only people 'keeping up with the curve' are India and China but they are about 12-16 levels above everyone else in the game. Almost all of Europe is sadly behind the times.

Is this some thing from the IGC? Are we just being imcompetent? That is quite possible, but I think I'm progressing along quite nicely. I have 4 Naval Manufactories generating +20 points/month. I have decent Monarchs most of the time and I fund research fairly heavily. Also, if it was just me, then shouldnt the AI be miles ahead?

Is there any 'setting' that retards technology development that I may have switched on inadvertantly? Finally, barring all that, how do I edit the files so that I can get the tech back on more historical track. Its a real drag still fighting with Pikes in 1700. Also, Naval Blockades and Shipyards are just now becoming possible meaning that for almost 2/3 of the game, Navies are fairly impotent.

I know that 1.08 slowed down research progression, but I was under the impression that that was only pertaining to being AHEAD of the historical timeline. In my games, all of Europe is FAR behind.

Thanx for any help on this!

Talenn

 

[Dark Knight]

I think the problem is that it was originally easy for the human player to max out research long before 1792 and so beginning in early patches, Paradox made adjustments that slowed down tech research. Unfortunately, this has resulted in development now being slower than it historically was.

 

[unmerged(1798)]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
I think the problem is that it was originally easy for the human player to max out research long before 1792 and so beginning in early patches, Paradox made adjustments that slowed down tech research. Unfortunately, this has resulted in development now being slower than it historically was.

I've played three V1.08's as a major GC (not IGC), haven't had much trouble keeping on track, and haven't maxed out until well into the 1700's, so I don't think the problem is in the Paradox patch. I'm in the middle of my first IGC as Poland and its too early to give any data point that's pertinent to this question.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Talenn

I have played 2 IGC's in the last few weeks until around 1700's or so, one as England and one as Sweden. In both games, I've noticed that Tech progression is about 50-100 years behind 'schedule'. For example, in my game as Sweden, I just hit 1702 and have yet to get 'Muskets'. I am in 2nd place (and just barely) for Land Tech so I know its not just me lagging behind.

The same goes for Naval Tech, and to a lesser extent for Trade/Infra. About the only people 'keeping up with the curve' are India and China but they are about 12-16 levels above everyone else in the game. Almost all of Europe is sadly behind the times.

Is this some thing from the IGC? Are we just being imcompetent? That is quite possible, but I think I'm progressing along quite nicely. I have 4 Naval Manufactories generating +20 points/month. I have decent Monarchs most of the time and I fund research fairly heavily. Also, if it was just me, then shouldnt the AI be miles ahead?

Is there any 'setting' that retards technology development that I may have switched on inadvertantly? Finally, barring all that, how do I edit the files so that I can get the tech back on more historical track. Its a real drag still fighting with Pikes in 1700. Also, Naval Blockades and Shipyards are just now becoming possible meaning that for almost 2/3 of the game, Navies are fairly impotent.

I know that 1.08 slowed down research progression, but I was under the impression that that was only pertaining to being AHEAD of the historical timeline. In my games, all of Europe is FAR behind.

Thanx for any help on this!

Talenn

1) minor nations will progress quicker than big ones.
2) compared to this all other factors ( tech group, budget, etc) have a secondary role
3) 1.08 has introduced this penalty for nations in advance

So: look at minor nations level: either they are in advance, or they're suffering from penalty.
Major are stalled by their own size: spain is generally always among the last with england ( colonial empires.

 

[unmerged(1744)]

joel rauber:

Please post your results in your current IGC as it goes. I'd like to see if this a problem in the IGC or something I'm doing incorrectly. Perhaps the latest IGC doesnt take enough accounting of the changes made in the 1.08 patch.

Anyone else playing the IGC and having tech 'issues'?

Thanx,
Talenn

 

[Griffon]

I'm playing IGC 1.7c and although we're in 1640, I've only got land level 9. I'm playing as Austria and I'm the tech leader for land.

hope this help sort out the issues

 

[unmerged(1744)]

Laurent:

Even all the Minors are pretty far behind. A few of them are above the Majors, but still at least 50 years behind the 'historical'. I dont think any of them (except for the Chinese/Indians) are going to ever get even halfway through the tech tree. 1702 and I have yet to encounter an army that wasnt still in the 'Pikeman Era'...ie the icons are always still the same as start. As England, I had the 'Musketeer icon' around 1650 or so...still WELL behind the 'norm'.

Talenn

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Talenn
Laurent:

Even all the Minors are pretty far behind. A few of them are above the Majors, but still at least 50 years behind the 'historical'. I dont think any of them (except for the Chinese/Indians) are going to ever get even halfway through the tech tree. 1702 and I have yet to encounter an army that wasnt still in the 'Pikeman Era'...ie the icons are always still the same as start. As England, I had the 'Musketeer icon' around 1650 or so...still WELL behind the 'norm'.

Talenn

So the penalty limit is working in part... and the neighbour bonus mechanics is then playing. previously at least, major were boosted by minors of the same rech group: now minors are slowed, majors are yet slower...

I remember tech progression was made harder in a patch. As the system is totally screwed up, the partial fixes are ven worse in results... I 've had many difficulties in real EU to fix this but at least by 1600 land level 12 is reached... more historical more fun but the mere indication system is currently wholly flawed...

 

[unmerged(548)]

Originally posted by laurent Favre


So the penalty limit is working in part... and the neighbour bonus mechanics is then playing. previously at least, major were boosted by minors of the same rech group: now minors are slowed, majors are yet slower...

I remember tech progression was made harder in a patch. As the system is totally screwed up, the partial fixes are ven worse in results... I 've had many difficulties in real EU to fix this but at least by 1600 land level 12 is reached... more historical more fun but the mere indication system is currently wholly flawed...

I think the error was made when Paradox first tried to fix the problem with Humans researching all techs by 1650.

The tech costs was upped a greate deal, making the AI suffer quite.

The best solution IMO would be to go back to the old techtree costs but increase the penalties for beeing ahead of time even more (a feature which was added in the latest patch) to really make shure no one got too far ahead.

I hope this will be in already in 1.09 as currently this whole area is a huge mess.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Huszics


I think the error was made when Paradox first tried to fix the problem with Humans researching all techs by 1650.

The tech costs was upped a greate deal, making the AI suffer quite.

The best solution IMO would be to go back to the old techtree costs but increase the penalties for beeing ahead of time even more (a feature which was added in the latest patch) to really make shure no one got too far ahead.

I hope this will be in already in 1.09 as currently this whole area is a huge mess.

I implemenetd the first in real EU and it works. About increasing penalties, we have to be very cautious IMO because the tech progression isn't linear: there are some periods where tech levels are very close, simulating some accelaeration of military tech and giving to a nation a brief but real advance on others ( Sweden under GAII, prussia under F II). penalty mechanism is yet hindering this.

last, as long a muslim nation will progress faster than a latin major because of smaller size, we will have side effects of the neighbour bonus: Turkey is beneficing of that...

 

[unmerged(1798)]

Originally posted by Talenn
joel rauber:

Please post your results in your current IGC as it goes. I'd like to see if this a problem in the IGC or something I'm doing incorrectly. Perhaps the latest IGC doesnt take enough accounting of the changes made in the 1.08 patch.

Anyone else playing the IGC and having tech 'issues'?

Thanx,
Talenn

Will do, it is an interesting question about IGC's use of 1.08 patch.

A few disclaimers.

a) I never achieved the very early maxing out of tech tree with 1.07 (but those were my first two games!)

b)My current and first IGC game is as Poland, which seems to be in a harder position for advancing its tech than other nations I've played as GC 1.08. Large country, harder to get the economy going; little colonization opportunity. This means I'm not sure how well I can compare this experience to experiences as France or England or Russia; which were the countries I played where my tech advances were fairly on track.

Should I try to keep track of anything other than Polands tech levels and few other countries tech levels?

 

[unmerged(598)]

The problem is now, that although you may find it difficult to max out techs earlier than the late 18th century, it's still very rare that an AI nation will be ahead of you in any tech.

I usually spend almost all of my monthly budget on research, and usually very balanced, however it does not matter whether I play England, Spain, Turkey or Bohemia, I always appear ahead in the tech race. Although the race is close enough to not make much difference in combat, it would be nice to see another improvement in the AI handling of research. For instance it would be nice to see a human Turkey, Poland or Russia fall behind by the 18th century and be prey to AI Austria or Prussia/Brandenburg in combat.

I wouldn't mind seeing the AI given more of a benefit, or even a direct cheat to push them ahead because until the AI makes improvements on their spending habits ,currently they remind me of my girlfriend and their adherence to attrition and more cost effective sieges, the human player will always be more effective with cash spending and thus research.

 

[unmerged(998)]

I'm in IGC 1.08 as Turkey Its ~1710. I have just received level 12 land tech (finally!!!) Its a lot slower than 1.07 where as (a huge) Russia i easily hit 20 bit 1650. I am second only to austria in land tech (and behind in other s.. i had to almost max out land to catch up)

However the minors are just going insane.. they have had at least level 12 for some
time (al least since late 1660s). Including my own steeenking vassals!!!

I know the game needs balance but tech progession is SOOOOO slow its not even
funny i will be surprised if anyone breaks level 15 land by 1792!!

One possibility is by having a bigger catach up value (so no-one really lags too far ) but reducing the
the reerach costs (doe sit really warrant for turkey to take 50 years be at Trade 6 while
all her neigbours (in europe) are trade 11. Or areall our traders homer simpson by default..

And pleease for 1.9 someone do something about the ungodly UBERminors and pirates..
(Hannover Land tech ~14, 100+ sized armies w/ ~500 guns !!! ) .. everyoen else 8-12 LT
and even france, spain and austria have smaller armies .. Geez... any wonder why two year later i get in subsequent turns messages like...
(Hannover annexes cologne, hannover annexes Bohemia , France peace w/ Hannover Artois, Hainault and Flandres to Hannover) (right now hannover is the 1.5th reich)

Z

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Zizka

And pleease for 1.9 someone do something about the ungodly UBERminors and pirates..
(Hannover Land tech ~14, 100+ sized armies w/ ~500 guns !!! ) .. everyoen else 8-12 LT
and even france, spain and austria have smaller armies .. Geez... any wonder why two year later i get in subsequent turns messages like...
(Hannover annexes cologne, hannover annexes Bohemia , France peace w/ Hannover Artois, Hainault and Flandres to Hannover) (right now hannover is the 1.5th reich)

Z

real EU 4.1 has done all that

 

[unmerged(1744)]

Well, from my results in my current game, I'm definately thinking that RealEU is FAR closer to the mark than the basic scen. I'm using a bastardized version of RealEU, but the tech cost and Monarch files are from Laurent's mod.

So far, its almost an exact match to the 'average' tech. My own country (ENG) and a few of the minors are a point or two ahead of 'historical' in some areas, but to make up for it, are generally a point or two behind in others. I have concentrated on Land and Naval Tech (and had 3 Naval Manufactories early on) and that has propelled me to near the top of the heap in those fields. My Trade and Infra are a bit subpar as fitting the specialization I chose.

I am watching a friend continue his 'stock' IGC as Turkey and its obvious even at 1545 that the techs (across the board) will be sadly behind 'schedule' in that game. Same goes for another game I watch someone play as Russia. Late 1500s and Land Techs in the 7-9 range.

Overall, I'm convinced that 1.08 set the research back too far. I dont know what the exact solution is at this point but those of your looking for a bit faster (and, IMO, historical) progression should seriously take a look at Laurent's Mod.

Talenn

 

[unmerged(998)]

I have spoken locally to some other EU players. It appears that the same thing happene dto them
Technology is moving about as fast as a snail's colon right now.. even with maxed values.

No-one seem sto have passed level 16 (and that was maxed out on land tech for 300 years)

We all thought we were just playing "badly" but as it appears from the forum tech
development seems to have stopped to a snails crawl. ALthough there is an interesting
anecdote .. it appear sthat prior to the early-mid 1600s everyone was just clipping along and then WHAAM
.. some sort of global retardation occurred... (which ironically is about avg level 15 tech)


Z

 

[unmerged(1798)]

Originally posted by Talenn
. . .

I am watching a friend continue his 'stock' IGC as Turkey and its obvious even at 1545 that the techs (across the board) will be sadly behind 'schedule' in that game. Same goes for another game I watch someone play as Russia. Late 1500s and Land Techs in the 7-9 range.

Overall, I'm convinced that 1.08 set the research back too far. I dont know what the exact solution is at this point but those of your looking for a bit faster (and, IMO, historical) progression should seriously take a look at Laurent's Mod.

Talenn

Talenn, I can't give you my numbers till tomorrow, the game is at home not at work. BUT,

One needs to distinguish between V1.08 GC and

IGC V1.8 on top of V1.08 Patch.

I'm probably an average ability player and as mentioned previously, in my plain Jane V1.08 GC games I've had little trouble climbing the tech tree; 2 of 3 games I maxed all tech areas (in the 1700's, some techs early in the century, other tech's later in the centure). The game where I didn't max out everything, I had maxed the land and trade, and was one away in infrastructure and only 2 or 3 away in naval.

At any rate I'll give you some numbers for my first (and still in progress) IGC tomorrow.

 

[Dragon2]

This problem can be solved, but it requires changing some files. I think that I've done the necessary reverse engineering.

In the DB folder are four csv files named infra, Land, NAVAL, and trade. Infra.csv, for example, looks like this:

Level;Cost;Efficiency;
0;1493;20;Base level
1;1495;25;
2;1505;30;
3;1510;35;
4;1540;40;
5;1570;50;
6;1600;60;
7;1640;70;
8;1700;80;
9;1750;90;
10;9999;100;Supa powa

The dates are what determine the cost of reaching the next level. With an assumed start of 1492, there is 1 year for level 0, then 2 more for level 1, 10 more for level 2, 5 for level 3, 30 for level 4, and so on. These date differences get multiplied by a factor that depends on your number of cities, inflation, etc. If you want to confirm this, play in Fantasy mode with just one city and do nothing. You'll see 150 times the year difference for each successive level.

So to speed up tech progress just back up these four files and replace them with ones that have a compressed time scale like this:

Level;Cost;Efficiency;
0;1493;20;Base level
1;1494;25;
2;1499;30;
3;1502;35;
4;1517;40;
5;1532;50;
6;1547;60;
7;1567;70;
8;1597;80;
9;1625;90;
10;9999;100;Supa powa

This example speeds things up by a factor of two, which is a bit too much. It would be an easy programming job to write a little application that reads the four files and speeds things up by a specified factor.

I was hoping to find a file like rules.txt in Civ 2 that makes it possible to modify basic game parameters like the "150" multiplier, but so far I've had no success.

 

[unmerged(548)]

I don't think the dates affects Infra and Trade tech at all (I didn't see it when I compiled the techcost list available in my beta FAQ anyway).

 

[unmerged(1798)]

IGC Poland numbers

As promised yesterday here are the current IGC numbers for me as Poland. I'm using IGC 1.8 on top of EU V1.08 and its my first game as Poland and my first IGC game, so take these numbers for what they worth (meaning I don't know how representative this is) the numbers are listed in the order of:

land/naval/stab/trad/infra (the same order as listed in the save file)

year 1505: 3/1/3/2/2

year 1562: 5/4/4/4/

year 1606: 8/7/3/4/4

Things are definitely going slower than my pure EU V1.08 games. Whether this is due to IGC changes or inept play (as Poland) on my part I don't know.