5 religious tenets instead of 3 would be much better

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Currently i have being playing with a mod that allows for designed religions to have 5 tenets and i have to say it not only allows to better represent the religion in question but it actually makes the religion you play with impactful gameplay and strategy wise. The Vanilla game should adopt a 5 tenet system to make this improvement universal and so make religions more histroically accurate and make religions vary more.
 
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Yes, that would fix the mess that is Eastern religions currently, like how some Buddhist religions have no Monasticism tenet. But them again it is more that the devs literally have wikipedia as their main source thus why they think Qarmatianism is any different theologically from other Ismailis sects despite any academic reading would disprove such thing or Quranism being a thing in the medieval ages. What i mean to say is that the Devs are the problem really as they don't care about doing deeper research because they know their American consumer base will eat it up because they don't know any better
 
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Currently i have being playing with a mod that allows for designed religions to have 5 tenets and i have to say it not only allows to better represent the religion in question but it actually makes the religion you play with impactful gameplay and strategy wise. The Vanilla game should adopt a 5 tenet system to make this improvement universal and so make religions more histroically accurate and make religions vary more.

That's open to debate.

Let's say there are 20 tenets to chose from (not the exact number, but since there are some restricted ones, and some mutually-exclusive ones, let's simplify).
With 3 tenets, you can make 1140 different combinations. With 5 tenets, you can make 15504 combinations. 15k is more than 1k, so it's better, and make religions vary more... but does it really ?

Let's say that out of the 20 tenets, 1 gives the ability to launch Holy Wars.
With 3 tenets, you can make 190 different combinations that include Holy Wars. That's 17% of all possible combinations.
With 5 tenets, you can make 4845 different combinations that include Holy Wars. That's 31% of all possible combinations.

So you suddenly go from about than 1 in 5 religions in the game waging Holy Wars, to aoubt 1 in 3.
Does this really make for more variety ?


I think there are so many options to chose from that the point of restricting a faith to 3 tenets is to force to make a choice - and in some cases such as this one, that makes for more variety in playstyles, and more replayability.
 
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I think the choice usually made is "well we only get 3, we have to go with what works instead of what's cool and flavourful" :p "But you can have a thousand more individual variations" isn't always meaningful, if too tight a belt means not having the freedom to explore them.
 
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The actual problem is the modularity. While nice for the niche modded community, it means that Catholicism isn’t Catholicism but a generic religion with 3 tenets tacked on, same with Orthodoxy, or the various branches of Islam.

if you actually want religions to shine, then have the historical religions custom designed uniquely, flesh out some specific heresies, and give them all unique life.

But that will never happen.
 
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Yeah so many of the tenets are so boring and useless that I will never pick them for a custom religion if I only have three choices.
 
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Yes, that would fix the mess that is Eastern religions currently, like how some Buddhist religions have no Monasticism tenet. But them again it is more that the devs literally have wikipedia as their main source thus why they think Qarmatianism is any different theologically from other Ismailis sects despite any academic reading would disprove such thing or Quranism being a thing in the medieval ages. What i mean to say is that the Devs are the problem really as they don't care about doing deeper research because they know their American consumer base will eat it up because they don't know any better

Please, please, please stop saying that the devs are either lazy or ignorant or both.

It is either disrespectful of the considerable work and care that is put in these games, to the point of being insulting,
and/or woefully ignorant of what game design and game development entail, especially in regards to games as ambitious as this one is.

Crusader Kings is a game, so it relies on a certain level of abstraction, as all games do, and it aims first and foremost to entertain the players.
Paradox is a company, so it has a set amount of resources it is willing to spend in regards to how much it expects to get back out of that investment.

Game design decisions can be debated. Business decisions can be debated.
But belittling the devs and implying they're morons does nothing for anyone.
 
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That's open to debate.

Let's say there are 20 tenets to chose from (not the exact number, but since there are some restricted ones, and some mutually-exclusive ones, let's simplify).
With 3 tenets, you can make 1140 different combinations. With 5 tenets, you can make 15504 combinations. 15k is more than 1k, so it's better, and make religions vary more... but does it really ?

Let's say that out of the 20 tenets, 1 gives the ability to launch Holy Wars.
With 3 tenets, you can make 190 different combinations that include Holy Wars. That's 17% of all possible combinations.
With 5 tenets, you can make 4845 different combinations that include Holy Wars. That's 31% of all possible combinations.

So you suddenly go from about than 1 in 5 religions in the game waging Holy Wars, to aoubt 1 in 3.
Does this really make for more variety ?


I think there are so many options to chose from that the point of restricting a faith to 3 tenets is to force to make a choice - and in some cases such as this one, that makes for more variety in playstyles, and more replayability.
This could be resolved by together with making every religion have 5 tenets also adding a few more tenets that are only present in certain religious groups, tenets that can only be used and added to Islamic faiths or Eastern Faiths, etc. This would allow for both historical representation and true variety and it is not difficult or expensive to add
The actual problem is the modularity. While nice for the niche modded community, it means that Catholicism isn’t Catholicism but a generic religion with 3 tenets tacked on, same with Orthodoxy, or the various branches of Islam.

if you actually want religions to shine, then have the historical religions custom designed uniquely, flesh out some specific heresies, and give them all unique life.

But that will never happen.
Exactly, they do not fell like actual religions like they did in other paradox games but i think adding more flavor and differentiate them more would be a satisfyingly solution
 
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Please, please, please stop saying that the devs are either lazy or ignorant or both.

It is either disrespectful of the considerable work and care that is put in these games, to the point of being insulting,
and/or woefully ignorant of what game design and game development entail, especially in regards to games as ambitious as this one is.

Crusader Kings is a game, so it relies on a certain level of abstraction, as all games do, and it aims first and foremost to entertain the players.
Paradox is a company, so it has a set amount of resources it is willing to spend in regards to how much it expects to get back out of that investment.

Game design decisions can be debated. Business decisions can be debated.
But belittling the devs and implying they're morons does nothing for anyone.
I am not saying they are dumb or incompetent, they made a good job on CK2 however the same way they decided to massively focus on Medieval Europe alone in CK3 and put less details elsewhere they did the same for religion because they know that they don't need to put these efford as their core market base will not care about outside Europe and did not put as much effort as they did in CK2.
 
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The actual problem is the modularity. While nice for the niche modded community, it means that Catholicism isn’t Catholicism but a generic religion with 3 tenets tacked on, same with Orthodoxy, or the various branches of Islam.

if you actually want religions to shine, then have the historical religions custom designed uniquely, flesh out some specific heresies, and give them all unique life.

But that will never happen.


I distinctly remember people saying 'it'll never happen' for a lot of things during the CKII DLC cycle that got added or changed. 'Africa will never be improved'. 'China will never appear in-game.' 'Pagans will never not be boring.' 'Republics will never be playable.' 'The Silk Road will never in included.'

Now, I do agree that religions need some TLC, but simply adding Tenet slots won't do the trick.
 
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This could be resolved by together with making every religion have 5 tenets also adding a few more tenets that are only present in certain religious groups, tenets that can only be used and added to Islamic faiths or Eastern Faiths, etc. This would allow for both historical representation and true variety and it is not difficult or expensive to add

There are already as many Restricted tenets as there are Common ones. 24 of each, so a total of 48, not counting Syncretism tenets.

Yeah so many of the tenets are so boring and useless that I will never pick them for a custom religion if I only have three choices.

The more variety you give, the more "boring" tenets you'll get. So which is it ? Should we have more tenets for more variety ? Or should we have more interesting tenets ?

Yeah, I know, we want it all.

Exactly, they do not fell like actual religions like they did in other paradox games but i think adding more flavor and differentiate them more would be a satisfyingly solution
The actual problem is the modularity. While nice for the niche modded community, it means that Catholicism isn’t Catholicism but a generic religion with 3 tenets tacked on, same with Orthodoxy, or the various branches of Islam.

if you actually want religions to shine, then have the historical religions custom designed uniquely, flesh out some specific heresies, and give them all unique life.

But that will never happen.

So same question as above : is it the mechanic of the religions that is lacking, or the Tenets in themselves ?

In CK2, there were 4 Christian religions, and 10 heresies.
In CK3, there are 16 Christian faiths.

In CK2, there were 34 religions, and 21 heresies, excluding reformed religion.
In CK3, there are 99 playable religions, excluding reformed religions.

So I really, really don't think "more" is the problem here.


As on other topics, I'm not saying nothing can be improved upon. But I don't think the problem is the system in itself.
I mean, Crusades are unlocked by a Tenet, so it's not a problem to have custom mechanics for a religion, and still have them embedded in the global religion mechanics.
 
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I am not saying they are dumb or incompetent, they made a good job on CK2 however the same way they decided to massively focus on Medieval Europe alone in CK3 and put less details elsewhere they did the same for religion because they know that they don't need to put these efford as their core market base will not care about outside Europe and did not put as much effort as they did in CK2.

Don't suppose you've experienced the base version of CK2, back before any of the DLC or content patches, have you? Yeah, in CK3 the world outside Europe is pretty bare-bones, but so the world inside Europe, once you get past the surface. CK2 was even worse since most of it wasn't even playable, or literally didn't exist until later. Did better with time, just hopefully Paradox gets to that point quicker and more thoroughly this time around.
 
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They don't need to be stronger with the 5 tenets either. Too many religions have messy tenets and secret abilities because there's just no place to show all their bonuses.

Honestly why not make tenets more like the 'traits' of a religion and make the total number arbitrary. Then just list out all the different tenets and use some point system to balance it so you can have all tenets in one religion.

The religious head could then add and remove special tenets and change the rules of their religion according to historical changes in these religions without a worry about replacing other tenets.

Maybe religions could build up some kind of 'prestige points' over the game through the great acts of its followers (won holy wars, special high stat rulers, etc) so successful and long lived religions can gain more expensive tenets over time. You could even make great holy wars a tenet that unlocks after a certain year and eventually the religious leaders can pick it.
 
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The more variety you give, the more "boring" tenets you'll get. So which is it ? Should we have more tenets for more variety ? Or should we have more interesting tenets ?

Yeah, I know, we want it all.
Obviously I'd like more interesting tenets, but if Paradox had ideas for more interesting tenets then they probably would already be in the game.
 

Chatoustikmou

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They don't need to be stronger with the 5 tenets either. Too many religions have messy tenets and secret abilities because there's just no place to show all their bonuses.

Honestly why not make tenets more like the 'traits' of a religion and make the total number arbitrary. Then just list out all the different tenets and use some point system to balance it so you can have all tenets in one religion.

The religious head could then add and remove special tenets and change the rules of their religion according to historical changes in these religions without a worry about replacing other tenets.

Maybe religions could build up some kind of 'prestige points' over the game through the great acts of its followers (won holy wars, special high stat rulers, etc) so successful and long lived religions can gain more expensive tenets over time. You could even make great holy wars a tenet that unlocks after a certain year and eventually the religious leaders can pick it.

There is an interesting idea there, but I'm pretty sure once religions start changing at the whim of the Head of Faith, a lot of players will be asking for "let me decide what Tenets are added to the religion".

Because you can't please everyone.
 
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There is an interesting idea there, but I'm pretty sure once religions start changing at the whim of the Head of Faith, a lot of players will be asking for "let me decide what Tenets are added to the religion".

Because you can't please everyone.
Although true you can already do that!! It's the new 'make your own religion' tenet. Just set yourself as religious head.

Most of the current religions wouldn't have the ability for the player to change the tenets except for Islam. But through reformation or creating your own religion everyone could change the tenets!

I'd also suggest certain events adding and removing tenets from religions without a head of faith through conclaves.

For situations in game where this would come up, the catholics and orthodox could definitely change their tenets for priest marriage, ecumenism, crusades, investiture, heretics. For the Tibetan Buddhists after the mongol invasion they could get the first dali lamas.
 
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Maybe part of the problem is that there are some tenets that feel very impactful on the way you play (Communion, Human Sacrifice, Warmonger) and others that feel like they do basically nothing (Sacred Childbirth, Sky Burials, Astrology). So if a particular faith has multiple do-nothing tenets, it feels very bland. Maybe there could be tiers of tenets - you'd get 2 or 3 major ones that have big, game-altering effects, and then a handful of minor ones that are basically just flavor.
 
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It would be good if experiment was conducted.
1 patch with 5 tenent faiths. AT least as beta-patch for streamers/content makers. And if checks whether it resuluts in a better gameplay.
2-4 weeks testing run is a small thing.
 
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Although true you can already do that!! It's the new 'make your own religion' tenet. Just set yourself as religious head.

"But I want to be head of Catholicism, not of a custom religion !"

I'm pretty sure we'll get this argument from someone if we keep this up long enough ;-)

Most of the current religions wouldn't have the ability for the player to change the tenets except for Islam. But through reformation or creating your own religion everyone could change the tenets!

I'd also suggest certain events adding and removing tenets from religions without a head of faith through conclaves.

For situations in game where this would come up, the catholics and orthodox could definitely change their tenets for priest marriage, ecumenism, crusades, investiture, heretics. For the Tibetan Buddhists after the mongol invasion they could get the first dali lamas.

Huge mechanical rework I expect, but neat possibilities overall.

Maybe part of the problem is that there are some tenets that feel very impactful on the way you play (Communion, Human Sacrifice, Warmonger) and others that feel like they do basically nothing (Sacred Childbirth, Sky Burials, Astrology). So if a particular faith has multiple do-nothing tenets, it feels very bland. Maybe there could be tiers of tenets - you'd get 2 or 3 major ones that have big, game-altering effects, and then a handful of minor ones that are basically just flavor.

That's Tenets vs Doctrines, in a sense.
(Although Doctrines can impact gameplay in a major way, but they do seem of less importance than tenets)

It would be good if experiment was conducted.
1 patch with 5 tenent faiths. AT least as beta-patch for streamers/content makers. And if checks whether it resuluts in a better gameplay.
2-4 weeks testing run is a small thing.

If a mod's doing it, you don't need to patch anything to conduct your experiment.

And I'm not sure any patch can be called a "small thing" =)
 
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I'd rather keep 3 tenets per religion so each religion is more unique, but add more flavor to tenets and religions in general - exactly like what they did for Asatru.

I tried mods that added tenet slots - it's not better in any way, and they are mostly used by players who want to stack all the good tenets. 3 tenets forces you to make choices when designing your own religion, and it should be enough to define any religion.
What we need is better tenets, and maybe more tenets to represent certain religions.
 
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