4th Gov Group: Limited Autocracies

[Hertzila]

A monarchy is not necessarily a hereditary one. Many monarchies were Elected Monarchies.

The Kings of Macedon
The Kings of Epirus
The Ancient Kingdom of Rome
The Holy Roman Empire
Kings of Sweden up until 1544
etc etc etc etc.

It is my understanding that most Monarchies were elective historically? Eventually most elected Monarchies introduced hereditary succession.

I think it would be interesting if the differentiated between the two. Individualist Elected Monarchies or Monarchies where the Monarchy is but a figure head and collectivist where the Monarchies are hereditary and the free citizens have no input on the matter.

Perhaps in a future expansion.

Well, most of those are better represented as oligarchies, as far as I know from the Swedish kings. They weren't really democratically elected, rather, some group of people (to my knowledge, the proto-aristocracy / rich men) gathered and decided that guy X was best at leading and as such, he'd be the leader.

 

[Arkangilos]

I'm not talking about those cases here. Heck, I replied to one of posts here that, as far as I'm concerned, UK is an Indirect Democracy.

I'm talking about the following country types:
1. Ruler is not elected and reigns until death - meaning it's monarchy
2. The Monarch is de-facto ruler - Cases where the Prime Minister (Democracy) or a ministry (Oligarchy) are in charge are NOT part of it
3. The Parliament and such do not govern - they are at best the counter-balance that force the Monarch to follow the Constitution, in other words stop him from transforming the country into its Collectivist type
4. The Monarch rules over an Individualist country - meaning that he guarantees freedom of speech, value of life and isn't allowed to conduct "tyrannical acts"

Points 1 to 3 mean that it can't be represented via a Democratic government because no democratic body is in executive leadership. At best, they are supervisors with enough power to keep the Monarch in line and represent populace's interests, but don't have enough power ti actually take over the rulership (getting the entire planet's populace on your side isn't as easy as getting a country's, not to mention that the Monarch may be the only thing keeping all these nations united so an overthrow would be too risky).

Point 4, the prime point, means that you can't represent it via any of the current governments because they are locked by the Individualism ethos. Seeing as 4 of 5 current monarchies ARE despotic I won't complain about the lock, but the idea that a Monarchy CAN'T be Individualistic while a militaristic or theocratic regime can be fully democratic is ridiculous.

A country like that would probably be neutral in the collective/individualist ethos, as they are collectivist enough to sacrifice their voice for the good of the nation, but individualist enough to maintain the power to enforce the constitution. Therefore, they are zero points in any direction, and can still select a monarchy. There you go.

 

[zukodark]

What if I want a government where three individuals rule with equal power?
One is a monarch, one is elected, and one is randomly selected. That is not represented well in the game. I could also think about lots of other governments that wouldn't fit in. I think it is fine that at launch the game has some limitations to what you can do.

 

[Cynwulf]

Well, most of those are better represented as oligarchies, as far as I know from the Swedish kings. They weren't really democratically elected, rather, some group of people (to my knowledge, the proto-aristocracy / rich men) gathered and decided that guy X was best at leading and as such, he'd be the leader.

elected by a council of free citizens which dependent on the Elective monarchy could mean different things for example in Macedon the King was elected by the army. Military service was linked to citizenship. I think it was similar for Epirus.

In Poland initially the kings were elected by a small council gradually this privilege was granted to all the polish Nobles. I think at one point estimate of some 500,000 nobles could vote for the next king.

The Saxons elected there kings through a vote by there nobles(thegns and eldorman) and by the Archbishops, bishops and Abbots.

 

[aruon]

i'd think it better if a 4th government type is actually corporation-based. it would differ from a basic plutocracy by being a private business first, and governmental entity 2nd in much the same way that a scientific directorate is.

 

[aitaituo]

There is a lack of appreciation for Classical Philosophy on this forum, which has come as a great surprise in light of Paradox's reputation for attracting enthusiasts of history.

There is a reason these ideas have endured for thousands of years. While later scholars and academics would grind through the endless permutations of the world in an effort to classify every possible instance of reality, the ancients described the world in broad terms that could be applied universally.

Is a limited monarchy a monarchy? Yes. Is a limited monarchy an oligarchy? Sometimes, yes. Is a limited monarchy a democracy? Sometimes, yes. The government forms in the game are finite. By retaining the elegance of the classical foundations of political philosophy, these 15 can stand for almost any conceivable government.

I am not for or against any particular number of in-game government types, but if there are more to be added, I think the best approach is not to fiddle with the number of politicians, but to add more ethical axes, lest we find ourselves engaged in the same fools errand of Wilkins.

 

[deezee]

There is a lack of appreciation for Classical Philosophy on this forum, which has come as a great surprise in light of Paradox's reputation for attracting enthusiasts of history.

There is a reason these ideas have endured for thousands of years. While later scholars and academics would grind through the endless permutations of the world in an effort to classify every possible instance of reality, the ancients described the world in broad terms that could be applied universally.

Is a limited monarchy a monarchy? Yes. Is a limited monarchy an oligarchy? Sometimes, yes. Is a limited monarchy a democracy? Sometimes, yes. The government forms in the game are finite. By retaining the elegance of the classical foundations of political philosophy, these 15 can stand for almost any conceivable government.

I am not for or against any particular number of in-game government types, but if there are more to be added, I think the best approach is not to fiddle with the number of politicians, but to add more ethical axes, lest we find ourselves engaged in the same fools errand of Wilkins.

Personally, I think Aristotle tends to be an overrated thinker. While there are contributions of his which are clearly insightful and foundational works of philosophy, there are also parts of his philosophy which survived because later thinkers copied him mindlessly instead of on their own merits.

For instance, Aristotle distinguishes governments based on how many rulers there are and whether the government rules for itself or for the people. Ignoring the fact that the second category is a massive oversimplification (nearly all governments consider both their own interests and those of the people to some extent), it is also extremely important how leaders are selected and what the governing principles are, which are completely ignored in Aristotle's treatment. For instance, a communist republic in which a small group of people (the Party) holds power in pursuit of an ideology is massively different from an aristocracy where ruled by a small number of landed title-holders, as is a theocracy led by a small number of ruling clergy and a presidential republic in which a single elected ruler holds supreme power has far more in common with a representative republic, in which governance is held among a group of people, than a monarchy. Usually it is far more important what ideological basis a government claims as its right to rule than how many people sit at its highest level; and even in terms of government structure, the structure of a government lower down in its hierarchy (e.g. federal vs unitary republics) are also hugely important.

His cycle of political change, from the same works, also does not hold to empirical tests. While Aristotle believed the earliest governments were monarchies that devolved into aristocracies and then oligarchies, most historical evidence suggests the earliest governments were aristocracies or even polities, which gradually become monarchies as leading nobles surpassed all others in influence.

That said, this is a game, and I think the list of governments works well from a gameplay perspective by allowing broad classes of governments based on the position on the individualist-collectivist axis and specific governments (which usually relate to how rulers are selected) based on the other ethical axis.