45 year Ally, fighting wars together then "Me want provinces!" Sigh.

[Immortal88]

Which provinces? It sounds like they took a mission - the one to take Italy, for example.

No I was playing multiplayer and a friend of mine had basically all land upwards of Frankfurt/Mainz steching from the Netherlands to Poland. I held all the land below Mainz from France's border (all of Milan/Savoy/Switzerland) to Hungary. Suddenly France turned from best ally to -200 hostile and the reason given was that they "want my provinces" and they didn't want any specific province, it was some absurd number like 50-60 provinces and when I used the diplomatic mapode and selected France then they had the yellow stripes over every single one of my provinces. It was late-ish in the game so I thought maybe it had to do with the imperialism casus belli or something. And this didn't just happen once, it happened twice in my game. First allies then -200 and they want all my shit. Then they get distracted by some war or other and suddenly the "wants your provinces" modifier is gone. I improve relations etc. etc. and re-ally them again. Half a century later the same thing happens again, they break the alliance (despite me being careful to keep it well into the +100-150 range), they turn super hostile and want absolutely everything I own. So it's not like I neglected our relations until they dropped into the negative zone, broke the alliance as a result of that and then rivaled / coveted all of my provinces, I had a super good relationship and then they backstabbed me completely out of the blue.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

All 5 provinces they want are in the French cultural group and most of them are in trade nodes relevant to them, so they want them claims or not. The malus has gotten smaller because you've gotten more powerful in relation to them, getting most of Iberia in a PU does quite a bit, so what exactly isn't WAD?...

Apologies I worded that badly, I'm allied to Castile who has Aragon under a PU, my bad.

 

[FieldMedic]

Can someone confirm or deny that the AI will always rival you, their ally and friend, if they don't have three rivals already and you're the only valid one? I see this a lot in my experience but maybe I'm just unlucky.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

Another possible bug, I declared war on France, Spain box is ticked, they are meant to be joining the war. I am in no wars before declaring on France. Spain does not join despite saying they will. Once they have finished their war with Morocco the call to arms button appears, but is greyed out. Any ideas? Again, I was in no wars before declaring on France and have not call Spain into any wars since allying them.

 

[Beagá]

Considering the upticks for this compared to every other post (except by Wiz) I have a sneaking suspicion that allot of people see that the black background of the project lead and auto-click agree... Thanks for getting involved Wiz. Barrois was the only claim France had, and it was the war goal they agreed to fight for, a player is hardly going to give the province they declared war to an ally. The -106 malus popped up directly after the war, and for the other province they didn't even have a claim.

War costs money and manpower and you bled them for nothing. That alone would make them have extra reasons to be pissed. It´s not only about "I don´t gave them their claim".

Truth be said, part of the problem is that only warleader gets goodies, if war indemnities were paid to the alliance then it would make more sense to make the AI not hate you.

But it isn´t. For all intents and purposes you were selfish, through not your fault if the game only gives you that option.

Maybe new option for peace, like Indemnities for the alliance, that should cost 10% per alliance member. So 6 allies to get money, would cost 60 warscore.

 

[londoner247]

Another possible bug, I declared war on France, Spain box is ticked, they are meant to be joining the war. I am in no wars before declaring on France. Spain does not join despite saying they will. Once they have finished their war with Morocco the call to arms button appears, but is greyed out. Any ideas? Again, I was in no wars before declaring on France and have not call Spain into any wars since allying them.

View attachment 131836

You're hijacking your own thread about something else here when it would be better to start a new one to keep the conversations separate!

That said, from your screenshot it looks like the war has been going on for a little while (as you have -5 war score) and it also looks like Spain has truces with Morocco, Tunis and Mali that have only just started. My *guess* (as I have had this bug myself but not been able to reliably reproduce it) is that Spain was allied with one of France's allies in their war against Morocco et al. The war declaration UI does not take that into account when telling you whether Spain will join you so you send them a call to arms expecting them to join.

However, France's allies accept the defensive call first and so when Spain comes to process your call to arms they are no longer eligible to join because they are fighting in another war alongside one of France's allies.

The bug is that the flag which the game sets to say that you have called them into the war is not cancelled when they prove to be ineligible and so when they make peace in their other war the game stops you calling them into the war.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

You're hijacking your own thread about something else here when it would be better to start a new one to keep the conversations separate!

That said, from your screenshot it looks like the war has been going on for a little while (as you have -5 war score) and it also looks like Spain has truces with Morocco, Tunis and Mali that have only just started. My *guess* (as I have had this bug myself but not been able to reliably reproduce it) is that Spain was allied with one of France's allies in their war against Morocco et al. The war declaration UI does not take that into account when telling you whether Spain will join you so you send them a call to arms expecting them to join.

However, France's allies accept the defensive call first and so when Spain comes to process your call to arms they are no longer eligible to join because they are fighting in another war alongside one of France's allies.

The bug is that the flag which the game sets to say that you have called them into the war is not cancelled when they prove to be ineligible and so when they make peace in their other war the game stops you calling them into the war.

Point taken, will do next time Ah so it is a known bug then, thanks for the input.

 

[londoner247]

Point taken, will do next time Ah so it is a known bug then, thanks for the input.

I'm not sure it's ever been acknowledged as a bug by Paradox and, as I say, I've not been able to reproduce it in a way that would allow me to report it on the bug forum. Does my theory fit your game? If you check who else (apart from Spain) Tunis has truces with are any of them France's allies in your war?

 

[shaldon]

On the original topic, it would be nice to see some flavour events indicating such large relations adjustments are about to take place - to do with changing power balance, new monarch being militaristic, or whatever.

Some kind of in-theme justification for the sudden switch in numbers, to lend it credibility.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

I'm not sure it's ever been acknowledged as a bug by Paradox and, as I say, I've not been able to reproduce it in a way that would allow me to report it on the bug forum. Does my theory fit your game? If you check who else (apart from Spain) Tunis has truces with are any of them France's allies in your war?

Unfortunately the truce timers have run down since so I can't check, it does sound plausible though.

 

[PeterCorless]

They want a claim, now they can´t get it because of 15 year truce. Probably occupied it in war for you too.

In this case, France had a claim on the same province. So if France had occupied it, it would NOT have transferred ownership to the war leader.

Still, it's a goofy thing for the AI to get into a war to conquer a province that it wanted. At the DOW screen, if the AI was really smart, it would have said, "Not willing to join war, due to wanting the same province." Something like that.

 

[208]

Taking this point along with the OPs, maybe France should have refused to join the war when the war goal was Barrois. There could have been a - 1,000 modifier for "Desperately wants Barrois for themselves". That would give the player a warning that France takes owning that province very seriously and taking it could sour relations.

I disagree, for two reasons.

One, if France expects Austria to roll over Barrois without its help (not an unreasonable expectation), then France has nothing to gain by taking that 25 prestige hit for declining a call to arms, and just break the alliance. If on the other hand Austria was declaring war on a powerful alliance where France's added might had a reasonable chance of making a difference, then it would make a lot more sense to refuse.

Two, the casus belli used does not 100% correlate with the desired peace terms, at least when it comes to players. Fabricating a claim is one of the easiest ways to generate a CB and avoid a no-CB penalty for declaring war, and players do gamey things all the time like declaring war on Barrois when their real target is Barrois' ally who otherwise has other powerful allies they don't want to fight. It would be hamstringing the AI a bit to take a player's declared wargoal as gospel (particularly using a Conquest CB) and make diplomatic decisions based on that.

 

[petertel123]

You have a massive border with them, are as strong as them, and have conflicting interests with them. you're a threat to them and a natural rival. France is right to dislike you here.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Seems like a case of "right outcome, wrong rationale".

 

[Beagá]

In this case, France had a claim on the same province. So if France had occupied it, it would NOT have transferred ownership to the war leader.

Still, it's a goofy thing for the AI to get into a war to conquer a province that it wanted. At the DOW screen, if the AI was really smart, it would have said, "Not willing to join war, due to wanting the same province." Something like that.

I gave extra thought to that and I really think a peace deal to give indemnitis to X would be a good way to control that.

Make Indemnities to Ally X cost 20 warscore and make them like you a lot in peace deals. Seems good balance for me.

What arguably doesn´t work is not only giving nothing, but also taking what they wanted and expect no retaliation.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

AI can not reason on human levels. It needs some lines that it won't let an ally cross or else it can just be taken advantage of completely. Taking provinces that it sees as rightfully belonging to it is one of these. More transparency would be good though, and some sort of warning that you're about to cross said line.

Is there any possibility for a mechanic where the game generates messages explaining why, exactly, nations are behaving a certain way? Maybe even giving ultimatums? For example:

"King [insert name of ruler],

Your treachery and ingratitude will, if not soon corrected, sever our union. Release my rightful territories now, or face the consequences.

May the humors rot in your body, King Louis XII."

Then, you could either accept the demand, or you could hold on to it and suffer the penalty.

 

[pedrito_elcabra]

Basically the AI did what any smart human might have done as well. Yes you are a strong ally, but you're competing for world domination. And you took a province that they have a claim on.

I'd have done the same thing.

 

[Dorevai]

I played an Austria game in 1.12 where I owned Franche-Comte, all of Wallonia, and Barrois since the inheritance, and France was my ally the whole game. Quite nice to be able to use Poland and France to sort out the HRE frequently. Of course with the 1.13 offensive war cooldown that game would be different, but France/Poland would probably have still been my buddies.

 

[atwix]

the reason your alliance broke, is because you took a province your ally has a claim on. Never do that, period.

Furthermore, if france (or any ally) has a land border with you (or a subject of yours)and a militaristic ruler, you will get 'wants your provinces' opinion malus even if they don't have claims. That malus amount will e determined by your strength versus theirs.

It doesn't need fixing, its working as designed.

 

[londoner247]

the reason your alliance broke, is because you took a province your ally has a claim on. Never do that, period.

Furthermore, if france (or any ally) has a land border with you (or a subject of yours)and a militaristic ruler, you will get 'wants your provinces' opinion malus even if they don't have claims. That malus amount will e determined by your strength versus theirs.

It doesn't need fixing, its working as designed.

I don't think anybody on this thread has claimed that the mechanic needs fixing. What people have said is that it should be more transparent that this behaviour will happen. People who are providing detailed explanations of why the game has behaved in the way it has are showing a deep understanding gained from dozens of hours of play but new or inexperienced players would get no clues from the game that what they are doing might be problematic. That is what people think needs fixing and Wiz seems to agree that greater transparency would be better.