45 year Ally, fighting wars together then "Me want provinces!" Sigh.

[Chimerae]

If you were playing France, wouldn't you at least want the provinces in the French region? And then you would want the Low countries right? And then you would want Austria reduced to nothing. And then you would want to humiliate them even more by renaming their capital Wien into something like wiener.

 

[londoner247]

There is leeway, trust matters a lot in bringing down desire for provinces, but if you say take Constantinople the Ottomans are always going to hate you, and France is nearly always going to want the French culture lands sooner or later. I think the problem here is one of lack of transparency more than anything.

Taking this point along with the OPs, maybe France should have refused to join the war when the war goal was Barrois. There could have been a - 1,000 modifier for "Desperately wants Barrois for themselves". That would give the player a warning that France takes owning that province very seriously and taking it could sour relations.

 

[Mattimeo78]

In their defence, everyone in the game should have -1000 Desires World Conquest from me.
Sadly it is a desire I may never fulfill, so they will all burn, over and over.

 

[Azikiel]

There is leeway, trust matters a lot in bringing down desire for provinces, but if you say take Constantinople the Ottomans are always going to hate you, and France is nearly always going to want the French culture lands sooner or later. I think the problem here is one of lack of transparency more than anything.

Mr. Wiz, anything you do to add more transparency to the game will be 1000000000% supported by the community, so anywhere you see fit, please feel free, we will all be grateful. More information was never a bad thing, and you know how much Paradox gamers love having tons of data!

 

[happymix91]

If you played France and were under that situation, you probably broke alliance to take French lands.

Why should AIs be player's puppet?

 

[krelian]

It would be nice to have the information up front. Though as a player, you should assume that cores/claims means they really want the province, so you are not completely in the dark even now.

But as a temporary solution maybe pop a notification saying "province X is desired by our ally, we should consider selling it to them if we want to keep the alliance going"

Or at least change the relationship hit to something more spread in time, so that the player has the time to notice something is souring relations and react. Rather than bam -200, alliance broken, war declared.

 

[kitemasaki]

Nah nothing needs to be changed. This has been around for a while now (I think going on at least 6 months).

If you haven't been able to adapt your strategies to unexpected turns (which are few if at all anyhow) then it sounds like you need new advice on your tactics. Just had the same thing happen to me as well (even longer relation than you had with trust at 'utterly')

I got the "pop up" notification you are asking for when my ally broke their alliance with me. Yeah. That is the notification.

I went with my plan B as any player should have.

 

[Tweakee]

Probably you say, alas no. I occupied it, I took it (the war goal, that France agreed to declare war for) it's one of the myriad of diplomacy issues that need tweaking.

I wasn't referring to the war goal. Was the war against a one-province nation with no allies?

You get the penalty if France occupied -anything-, -anywhere- from the war target, that it had a claim or core on.

AI can not reason on human levels. It needs some lines that it won't let an ally cross or else it can just be taken advantage of completely. Taking provinces that it sees as rightfully belonging to it is one of these. More transparency would be good though, and some sort of warning that you're about to cross said line.

How about sorting those "Thumbs Up/Down" icons on the side of the peace deal so that the Red "NO"s are on top?

 

[Paul31264]

But as a temporary solution maybe pop a notification saying "province X is desired by our ally, we should consider selling it to them if we want to keep the alliance going"

Why just as a temporary solution? I would in general like to have popups about these "Wants your provinces" modifiers. It's openly available information by looking at your relations with another country, so why not make it a bit more noticeable to the player? I don't like constantly having to look through the relationship modifiers with my neighbors to see if one of them suddenly wants my land.

 

[myrsl0ken]

But in this case the information was readily available. France had a claim. Whenever you take a province claimed by your allies you are risking the alliance. You are an actual intelligence; it isn't that hard to read the cues. On the other hand, it would be really nice if the "wants your provinces" did start at 0 and ticked up over a few years so you had some time to fix it if you are a new player or if you just forgot to check claims.

 

[BarskiPatzow]

When players stop backstabing the AI, then the AI should lose that modifier. I know that taking anything from Venice in Italy will make Austria hate me so I don't take stuf until I'm ready. And France is known for wanting everything. Only thing I would like a way to see what areas are countries interested in.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

Given how much you've grown, how little they have grown, how you apparently didn't even deign to give them an occupied claim last war AND then you take a french province they are claiming... The only thing they did wrong was not ditching you sooner.

Considering the upticks for this compared to every other post (except by Wiz) I have a sneaking suspicion that allot of people see that the black background of the project lead and auto-click agree... Thanks for getting involved Wiz. Barrois was the only claim France had, and it was the war goal they agreed to fight for, a player is hardly going to give the province they declared war to an ally. The -106 malus popped up directly after the war, and for the other province they didn't even have a claim.

Taking this point along with the OPs, maybe France should have refused to join the war when the war goal was Barrois. There could have been a - 1,000 modifier for "Desperately wants Barrois for themselves". That would give the player a warning that France takes owning that province very seriously and taking it could sour relations.

This is a good idea, however it would need to be carefully implemented or it could end up with various allies with counter claims refusing to go to war allot of the time.

The only problem with this is that its very rough transition, best buddies one day, next day -200 we hate you we want your things.

- AI aware of player growing would be nice, complemented with some "We are concerned, you are aggressive and growing more powerful every day" negative modifier, which would turn into this -200 eventually. It should be more transparent to the player that AI is starting to dislike him (experienced players know that this -200 will happen).

Diplomatic relation decay presented to player should be more subtle: instead of -200 we want all your stuff, they could implement somehing like:

1. You aggressively entered our sphere of influence - 5 per year; cap at 25 * no of provinces occupied, max 100.

For example if you took 1 province that France want, you would ger here -25 relations in 5 years. If you took 2 you would get to -50 in 10 years. Plus you will at the same time get "wants your provinces malus".

2. "Wants your provinces malus": -25 per province we want your X and X provinces (limit to 4 first provinces max).
In this case if you hold one province that France wants, max malus is -50, starting at (5+25, growing in 5 years to 50). If you take more you are on your way to -200 in less than 20ish years.

It should be always displayed (and malus active) if country wants your province, not this thing where in split second they just want everything. This sudden wants everything might be linked with new military personality leader coming into power, but still diplomatic relations decay should be more gradual.

This sounds like a solution. Contrary to some posts on here I'm not bitching because my perfect game was ruined by the AI not doing what I want, it's the abruptness and size of the malus I received. -106 to relations for because they have a claim on a single province, then decide they want the one next door as well (with no claim) is far too large. If they were two of their cores it would be understandable, as it stands its pretty rough. Bumping off a major ally over two non-core provinces feels cheap, if it had happened with a gradual deterioriation of relations as described above, that would allow the player to plan ahead and obvious reasons of why your ally thinks you're a dick.

Screenshot below is where my game is now 1530. France has now rivalled me but I've got Castile with aragon under a PU so the hurt will be heading France's way very soon. They now want 5 of my provinces, they have claims on only two of them but the Malus? -47. WAD? I think not....

 

[Wizzington]

You wouldn't get the not given claims penalty if they weren't actually occupying it, and if the AI is supposed to factor 'player will probably beat me in the future' into their thinking then they should all just day-one DOW you instead of allying you.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

You wouldn't get the not given claims penalty if they weren't actually occupying it, and if the AI is supposed to factor 'player will probably beat me in the future' into their thinking then they should all just day-one DOW you instead of allying you.

I was the one occupying Barrios a the peace deal, it was also a claim for both of us, not an occupied core. I'm not sure what your getting at with the "player will probably beat me in the future," Lolanda was referring to a relations penalty over a period of time if you occupied provinces in their region, is that what your referring to?

 

[BarskiPatzow]

I was the one occupying Barrios a the peace deal, it was also a claim for both of us, not an occupied core. I'm not sure what your getting at with the "player will probably beat me in the future," Lolanda was referring to a relations penalty over a period of time if you occupied provinces in their region, is that what your referring to?

I think you also get "not given ocupied cores" malus if the province they ocupied has their culture even without a claim. It happened to me and poland were at war with teutons.

 

[Wizzington]

I was the one occupying Barrios a the peace deal, it was also a claim for both of us, not an occupied core. I'm not sure what your getting at with the "player will probably beat me in the future," Lolanda was referring to a relations penalty over a period of time if you occupied provinces in their region, is that what your referring to?

The not occupied probably came from an earlier war.

 

[richelieu1628]

It's not going to get fixed but I'll moan regardless. Allies with France from November 1444, I help them defeat Spain for a PU over Navarra, They help me take down Burgundy for a nice Burgundian Inheritance for both of us, they even help me fight off a huge coalition war after I get a ridiculous 40 AE for taking Ravensburg. But then I have the temerity to take Barrois, a province that we both have a claim on. End of Alliance the month following peace, I mean really, the thing we agreed to go to war over, that's the thing to give a 100+ malus to kill our alliance? Rant over.

There is absolutely nothing to fix - this is not a problem, it's one of the best parts (obviously evolving but still great) of EU4 gameplay. States are not people, there's no reason why a 45-year engagement should lock them into a century-long marriage. If the underlying interests change, as they clearly have in this case, the behaviour should change accordingly.

 

[Tweakee]

I was the one occupying Barrios a the peace deal, it was also a claim for both of us, not an occupied core.

The "not given occupied claim/core" penalty wasn't from Barrois, as you were occupying it. It was from some other province in that or some other war you fought together.

But at the very least, you've hopefully given the Devs an excellent example of where their UI is failing, as it clearly didn't give you any help figuring out when the peace deals would cause friction. That data is too important to bury in a little red thumbs-down that may be scrolled off the screen.

 

[mattkunz]

Considering the upticks for this compared to every other post (except by Wiz) I have a sneaking suspicion that allot of people see that the black background of the project lead and auto-click agree... Thanks for getting involved Wiz. Barrois was the only claim France had, and it was the war goal they agreed to fight for, a player is hardly going to give the province they declared war to an ally. The -106 malus popped up directly after the war, and for the other province they didn't even have a claim.



This is a good idea, however it would need to be carefully implemented or it could end up with various allies with counter claims refusing to go to war allot of the time.




This sounds like a solution. Contrary to some posts on here I'm not bitching because my perfect game was ruined by the AI not doing what I want, it's the abruptness and size of the malus I received. -106 to relations for because they have a claim on a single province, then decide they want the one next door as well (with no claim) is far too large. If they were two of their cores it would be understandable, as it stands its pretty rough. Bumping off a major ally over two non-core provinces feels cheap, if it had happened with a gradual deterioriation of relations as described above, that would allow the player to plan ahead and obvious reasons of why your ally thinks you're a dick.

Screenshot below is where my game is now 1530. France has now rivalled me but I've got Castile with aragon under a PU so the hurt will be heading France's way very soon. They now want 5 of my provinces, they have claims on only two of them but the Malus? -47. WAD? I think not....

All 5 provinces they want are in the French cultural group and most of them are in trade nodes relevant to them, so they want them claims or not. The malus has gotten smaller because you've gotten more powerful in relation to them, getting most of Iberia in a PU does quite a bit, so what exactly isn't WAD?...

 

[Chimerae]

Maybe the modifier for allying anyone should change a little. Say every ruler has a certain ambition. For the French king, it is obviously to unite the French land. So for example, owning any province in the French region should give you -50 for allying them. Claims on French land should give -25. This would make it impossible to abuse French to win your wars (this actually makes the game a lot more interesting, and I hear more and more players have a personal policy to not ally France) or any big power for that matter.

Maybe ambitions should be added to the game (like CK2) so that for example the king of France gets to claim all land in the French region (claims nowadays only give 10% discount anyways). Bavaria gets claims on Bavarian land etc. This way the AI 'knows' what you are planning and might ally other power to try stop you from doing it.