45 year Ally, fighting wars together then "Me want provinces!" Sigh.

[Hodge_Hodgson]

It's not going to get fixed but I'll moan regardless. Allies with France from November 1444, I help them defeat Spain for a PU over Navarra, They help me take down Burgundy for a nice Burgundian Inheritance for both of us, they even help me fight off a huge coalition war after I get a ridiculous 40 AE for taking Ravensburg. But then I have the temerity to take Barrois, a province that we both have a claim on. End of Alliance the month following peace, I mean really, the thing we agreed to go to war over, that's the thing to give a 100+ malus to kill our alliance? Rant over.

 

[Incompetent]

-106 is pretty extreme for just two provinces. I could understand it if they wanted the whole Low Countries, say.

The -40 for not giving cores/claims is probably working as intended (the AI doesn't care about your claims, so overlapping claims/cores are inevitably a source of tension), and if it was just that, plus a small amount of 'wants your provinces', you probably could have held the alliance (especially as you have a high trust score with France).

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

-106 is pretty extreme for just two provinces. I could understand it if they wanted the whole Low Countries, say.

The -40 for not giving cores/claims is probably working as intended (the AI doesn't care about your claims, so overlapping claims/cores are inevitably a source of tension), and if it was just that, plus a small amount of 'wants your provinces', you probably could have held the alliance (especially as you have a high trust score with France).

Yeah I would have done, my relations with them have been between -31 to -37 since they broke the alliance, the -106 does seem a tad extreme. I've noted another oddity since, a CB against Savoy for holding imperial territory was expiring, looked into declaring war, no CB. This is despite it being shown as a current CB in my diplomacy page:

 

[Immortal88]

Had the exact same thing with France and it annoys me to no end. I was playing as Elsace/Elsass OPM and eventually took over most of Germany and the HRE. One day it's +170 relations best buds, next day they want over 60 (!) of my provinces and somehow they have a claim on all of them (How is that even possible? A Special event?). I don't know doesn't feel right.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

Annoyingly France doesn't even have a claim on Freigrafschaft, yet they're willing to kill a 45 year alliance (assuming -56 malus is for that province) on a whim because suddenly they like the look of it? If it was an event where a monarch arbitrarily decided that he must have that province then fair enough, Kings could be massive dicks for no apparent reason, but just a pop up and that little explanation in the diplomacy screen feels cheap.

 

[dbruser]

The alliance probably wouldve survived with -100 wants your provinces if it wasnt combined with the -40 you didnt give them their claims malus. Also I think that them being hostile makes the -100 malus bigger.

 

[Paul31264]

I've never quite understood how the "Wants your provinces" modifier works, but here's how I think it works.

- The larger/stronger a country who wants your provinces is, the higher the negative modifier will be. A country far smaller than you, for example, could say they want a bunch of your provinces, but still have only a negative modifier of -10 or so. And then a country like France comes along, and gives you a modifier of -200 for the same amount of provinces.

- If the other country has a claim/core or something like a mission to colonize a specific province, it will result in a higher negative modifier. You'll notice this if you play in one of the colonial regions, and suddenly you have -200 "Wants your provinces" with Castille.

- "Wants your provinces" modifiers are not permanent, but seem to come and go over time. You might very well be able to regain the alliance with France if he changes his mind. I managed to do exactly that in my current game after he stopped wanting one of my provinces. The reason for this could have to do with ruler personalities. If the ruler changes and the new one has an administrative or diplomatic instead of a militaristic personality, that might make the modifier disappear.

Like I said, I'm not completely sure about this, so feel free to correct any of these points.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

I've never quite understood how the "Wants your provinces" modifier works, but here's how I think it works.

- The larger/stronger a country who wants your provinces is, the higher the negative modifier will be. A country far smaller than you, for example, could say they want a bunch of your provinces, but still have only a negative modifier of -10 or so. And then a country like France comes along, and gives you a modifier of -200 for the same amount of provinces.

- If the other country has a claim/core or something like a mission to colonize a specific province, it will result in a higher negative modifier. You'll notice this if you play in one of the colonial regions, and suddenly you have -200 "Wants your provinces" with Castille.

- "Wants your provinces" modifiers are not permanent, but seem to come and go over time. You might very well be able to regain the alliance with France if he changes his mind. I managed to do exactly that in my current game after he stopped wanting one of my provinces. The reason for this could have to do with ruler personalities. If the ruler changes and the new one has an administrative or diplomatic instead of a militaristic personality, that might make the modifier disappear.

Like I said, I'm not completely sure about this, so feel free to correct any of these points.

You're right, I've seen it happen a number of times. Yet another bug I've just noted, I've just declared war on Bavaria for a single province, unticked Hungary and Poland from joining the war as I wante them both for a bigger war due to the "not joining another agressive war until x" malus, yet they've both joined from day one. Beta indeed....

 

[Tweakee]

Had the exact same thing with France and it annoys me to no end. I was playing as Elsace/Elsass OPM and eventually took over most of Germany and the HRE. One day it's +170 relations best buds, next day they want over 60 (!) of my provinces and somehow they have a claim on all of them (How is that even possible? A Special event?). I don't know doesn't feel right.

Which provinces? It sounds like they took a mission - the one to take Italy, for example.

To the OP: You backstabbed France first by not giving them land they had earned in your war. And by taking land you knew France wanted, you backstabbed yourself as well.

It is definitely possible to keep alliances even when the AI has claims or missions targeting your provinces. But you need to have otherwise great relations. In the OP's case, his Trust isn't even maxxed out, perhaps because he just betrayed his ally. I don't see anything that needs "fixing" here.

 

[Incompetent]

- "Wants your provinces" modifiers are not permanent, but seem to come and go over time. You might very well be able to regain the alliance with France if he changes his mind. I managed to do exactly that in my current game after he stopped wanting one of my provinces. The reason for this could have to do with ruler personalities. If the ruler changes and the new one has an administrative or diplomatic instead of a militaristic personality, that might make the modifier disappear.

It definitely comes and goes when the ruler changes, but it doesn't seem to be based entirely on personality. I got a message saying that the new king of France is 'said to be a Diplomat', but he went from wanting one of my provinces to wanting a whole bunch of them. It didn't break the alliance, but it certainly caused some tension as France plunged into negative opinion of me (having previously been around +120, including the RM that ended when the French king died).

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

Which provinces? It sounds like they took a mission - the one to take Italy, for example.

To the OP: You backstabbed France first by not giving them land they had earned in your war. And by taking land you knew France wanted, you backstabbed yourself as well.

It is definitely possible to keep alliances even when the AI has claims or missions targeting your provinces. But you need to have otherwise great relations. In the OP's case, his Trust isn't even maxxed out, perhaps because he just betrayed his ally. I don't see anything that needs "fixing" here.

Evening Tweakee, I declared war for Barrois, a province that France and I (Austria) had a claim on. I took it as part of the peace deal, France didn't have any other claims, let alone cores occupied. The month after I get the -106 malus for "I want provinces," and "not given cores," despite no cores, and no claims, being occupied. I didn't back stab, I took the war goal they agreed to go to war for with in the first place.

In relation to my last post regarding allies coming into war despite being unticked, it then when I declared on Salzburg, Bavaria was an ally and came to their aid, along with the rest of the coalition. Poland and Hungary came to my aid which is great as I am now stomping all of them. Interesting point, they've all declared due to coalition, yet I can make peace with them individually, effectively farming them for gold. Seems a bit iffy, I'm sure there is a message setting I can change to pop up but I think if 10+ nations declare on you via a coalition from an ally of a non-coalition war target it should let you know without having to change message settings.

 

[Manarte]

- "Wants your provinces" modifiers are not permanent, but seem to come and go over time. You might very well be able to regain the alliance with France if he changes his mind. I managed to do exactly that in my current game after he stopped wanting one of my provinces. The reason for this could have to do with ruler personalities. If the ruler changes and the new one has an administrative or diplomatic instead of a militaristic personality, that might make the modifier disappear.

I'm not sure but maybe this is somehow related to the leader personality, so a country led by a militaristic guy have more chance to get the "wants your province" modifier than one led by a diplomatic one.

 

[Zelius]

I've never quite understood how the "Wants your provinces" modifier works, but here's how I think it works.

- The larger/stronger a country who wants your provinces is, the higher the negative modifier will be. A country far smaller than you, for example, could say they want a bunch of your provinces, but still have only a negative modifier of -10 or so. And then a country like France comes along, and gives you a modifier of -200 for the same amount of provinces.

- If the other country has a claim/core or something like a mission to colonize a specific province, it will result in a higher negative modifier. You'll notice this if you play in one of the colonial regions, and suddenly you have -200 "Wants your provinces" with Castille.

- "Wants your provinces" modifiers are not permanent, but seem to come and go over time. You might very well be able to regain the alliance with France if he changes his mind. I managed to do exactly that in my current game after he stopped wanting one of my provinces. The reason for this could have to do with ruler personalities. If the ruler changes and the new one has an administrative or diplomatic instead of a militaristic personality, that might make the modifier disappear.

Like I said, I'm not completely sure about this, so feel free to correct any of these points.

I believe they also have a 'wants your provinces' modifier for culture group provinces (that they border?). Also just whenever you have a border when they are militaristic. And sometimes who knows why; for example, the Ottomans want whole swathes of land from me, GH, for a whopping -200 despite not having a relevant mission, no claims or cores, and being weaker than me. Imperialism hadn't unlocked so they'd have to take Unjustifed Demands just to get them.

 

[Beagá]

There are bad things in diplomacy, above all AI breaking alliance due to silly missions and claims, but OP is WAD. If I were playing as France, got my manpower depleted for nothing I too would seek a better ally.

France knows you are only using them so why the hell keep alliance?

OP issue is one of learning curve. You thought AI was your pet, and it isn´t.

Bottom line: don´t take stuff that the AI has claims on or cores, specially if leader is militaristic.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

I'm not sure but maybe this is somehow related to the leader personality, so a country led by a militaristic guy have more chance to get the "wants your province" modifier than one led by a diplomatic one.

It's a nice theory, unfortunately....

 

[Beagá]

Administrative is neutral. The only AIs which won´t activelly wage many offensive wars are colonialists and diplomats.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

If you agree to go to war for a specific target, Barrois in this instance, and the War Leader takes that target at the end of the war, with no other cores or claims of the ally being occupied, how is that working as designed if said ally gets a huge malus to relations with the war leader once peace is declared and the war goal attained? I'm trying to see your thought process but I'm struggling, help me out here bud.

 

[Beagá]

They want a claim, now they can´t get it because of 15 year truce. Probably occupied it in war for you too.

Questions?

If you give one province, just ONE, they don´t break alliances. From my experience. The "gave provinces" bonus is just as massive as the malus you got.

If there was something like, "You did siege so you got province first" ok, but if there wasn´t, then why the hell they should bleed for nothing and be happy?

 

[Tweakee]

Evening Tweakee, I declared war for Barrois, a province that France and I (Austria) had a claim on. I took it as part of the peace deal, France didn't have any other claims, let alone cores occupied. The month after I get the -106 malus for "I want provinces," and "not given cores," despite no cores, and no claims, being occupied. I didn't back stab, I took the war goal they agreed to go to war for with in the first place.

Who was the war with?

I haven't heard of any bugs with "occupied cores and claims", so it seems likely that France occupied -something- that it wanted. It's impossible to tell w/o a screenshot from during the war.

 

[Hodge_Hodgson]

Probably you say, alas no. I occupied it, I took it (the war goal, that France agreed to declare war for) it's one of the myriad of diplomacy issues that need tweaking.