403) FEEDBACK: Pope inherits kingdom

[Solmyr]

Pope inherits kingdom

Here's the situation:

Robert de Hauteville was elected Pope. He was also a cousin to the then-Duke of Apulia (also a Hauteville) and was his only heir (said Duke having no sons). When the Duke of Apulia died, the Pope prompty inherited the entire southern Italy, adding it to the Papal States.

Now, it's funny, but there is no way the European nobility would accept the Pope inheriting an entire kingdom or duchy and adding it to his lands. Especially that in CK you cannot have separate inheritance laws for different parts of your domain, and so now Naples/Apulia are governed by the same elective law that the rest of the Papal States are. And I'm pretty sure that the Pope could not inherit feudal domains by IRL church practice, either.

Possible solution: Make the Pope automatically ineligible for any inheritance. Otherwise you run the risk of him not only stealing bishoprics on election, but occasionally "stealing" entire kingdoms.

 

[Mohe]

Interesting what happens if the players heir becomes Pope? When the player dies how does the inheritence work?

 

[Moquel]

The Papal States is then absorbed into the players realm, at least that's what will happen in my game as Sweden - I saved and used die on my king just to see what would happen.

 

[Brownbeard]

if you're the papal controler, your courtiers become nominated for bishops, so there's somewhat of a possibility that your heir might get elected bishop if you don't give him a title...

 

[Captain Frakas]

Imo, bishops and other clerical guy should never be heir, like bastard.
Also only catholics courtiers with religious education should be nominated for bishops by the Pope in the papal controler court.

 

[State Machine]

I believe this specific situation is under discussion in the beta forum atm.

At issue are inheritences by clerics in general, and the obvious temporal title issues.

 

[Petrarca]

Imo, bishops and other clerical guy should never be heir, like bastard.
Also only catholics courtiers with religious education should be nominated for bishops by the Pope in the papal controler court.

Ecclesiastical persons were barred from succession to the Electorates of the Empire. I could dig up some more...

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Except, of course, the fact that three of the Electorates were archbishoprics. But those were not inheritable - they were appointed positions.

 

[Grosshaus]

Ecclesiastical persons were barred from succession to the Electorates of the Empire. I could dig up some more...

Really? Could you give a link to a source so I can be more convincing in the beta forum with this

 

[Petrarca]

From the Golden Bull of 1356:
( http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/medieval/golden.htm )

we, wishing by God's help to wholesomely obviate future dangers, do establish with imperial authority and decree, By the present ever-to-be-valid law, that when these same secular prince electors, or any of them, shall die, the right, vote and power of thus electing shall, freely and without the contradiction of any one, devolve on his first born, legitimate, lay son; but, if he be not living, on the son of this same first born son, if he be a layman. If, however, such first born son shall have departed from this world without leaving male legitimate lay heirs,-by virtue of the present imperial edict, the right, vote and aforesaid power of electing shall devolve upon the elder lay brother descended by the true paternal line, and thence upon his first born lay son. And such succession of the first born sons, and of the heirs of these same princes, to their right, vote and power, shall be observed in all future time; under such rule and condition, however, that if a prince elector, or his first born or eldest lay son, should happen to die leaving male, legitimate, lay heirs who are minors [. . .]

Only lay heirs, then. Sheridan, I'll get you for trying to punch a hole in my statement, only to end up admitting I'm still right.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Well, I wasn't, really, trying to poke holes; just pointing out the fact. I believe there were something like 7 electorates, of which 3 were (if I recall my college German history class) the archbishops of Kleves, Cologne and Trier(?) ... you were of course referring to the other four, which if I recall included the Dukes of Saxony and Bavaria and two other officials I can't remember (although I suspect one of them might be the Duke of Swabia).

 

[Petrarca]

I was merely making a mock point of contention between us.

If it were possible, removing bishops from the line of succession would be great (you could be generous and say that those with ecclesiastical education aren't necessarily clerics, though they most likely would be). From 1356 the Palatinate, Saxony, and Brandenburg wouldn't allow clergy to succeed; Bohemia had special privileges in their royal succession.

 

[Petrarca]

His brother Baldwin [of Bouillon] was a very different sort of man and was frankly secular in outlook. He had been destined for the church and so had inherited none of the family estates, but he had proved to be quite unsuited for the life of a churchman and returned to the lay state. There was, therefore, no future for him in Europe and he took his wife and children with him to the East, clearly never intending to return

Baldwin, who took the Cross in 1096, was removed from succession because he was a cleric.

 

[Moquel]

Could someone classify this as a bug to fix? Because in my current game, one of my king's sons became Pope, and then he inherited my realm. I guess that's really not _that_ big a deal apart from the historical silliness of it - but the real problem is that the Papal Controller title is still dished out on the load of each game (for some reason).
Clicking "Excommunicate" in the actions menu then CTD's the game.
IMO this should be fixed no matter what the other decisions around papal inheritance are.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Well, in general, priests (and therefore bishops, archbishops, cardinals and the Pope) should be unable to inherit any lands whatsoever; areas that already possess a ruler of this type would of course have a replacement appointed by the Church, not selected because of any sort of relationship to the prior officeholder.

 

[Fawr]

I think that some (most) forms of religious education should also remove the holder from the inheritance list (as religious education is a pre-requisite for diocese bishop). I would also like to stop the pope appointing non-religiously educated people to bishop positions (which would stop your heirs from being appointed bishops by the pope).

 

[Solmyr]

If religious education in itself prevents you from inheriting, then it could screw the AI, since it could randomly select religious education for its heir (when the education event AI chances are fixed). So it's not as easy as that.

 

[Brownbeard]

If religious education in itself prevents you from inheriting, then it could screw the AI, since it could randomly select religious education for its heir (when the education event AI chances are fixed). So it's not as easy as that.

as far as i've noticed the ai only picks court education

 

[Solmyr]

as far as i've noticed the ai only picks court education

Yes, but that's a bug that will (hopefully) be fixed.

 

[Cat Lord]

I log it, but in FEEDBACK status, as it is in discussion in the beta forums...

Cat