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Magister Tremere

Sergeant
Mar 26, 2019
76
20
You can read my quoted message below pertaining cost and time. a change in camera, Is not as time consuming or expensive as some may think. I've been. I have 17 years of experience in modding, and programming, I worked for 3Dexcite, we've worked mostly on CGI, and entertainment industry apps. It's not video games, but it's very closely related. I've also worked mods and overhauls for Bloodlines (Includin the unnoficial patch), skyrim, fallout, divinity original sin, borderlands, mount and blade, ark survival evolved, the witcher 3.

I did mods for Bloodlines for 8 years, and what kept the game alive and turned into a cult classic were those mods. 90% of those mods were created with 3rd person in mind, if Bloodlines had been a 1st person game only, we would not even be talking about it right now. This mods is what drove the community to play the game, and that community what drove modders to keep working on it for years. If Paradox and Harsuit ignore this fact, they will be making a huge mistake.

You referred to Dying Light which has a 3rd person mod, this mod proves that the devs could have included 3rd person into the game if they wanted. The mod didn't take much effort to make, but unfortunately it was missing animations, which could not be added into the game. They could have offered mod tools to make it possible or just patched it into the game themselves. It would not have changed, the design, or the mechanics of the game, nor negatively affect the process, nor a combat redesign, nor the game world. You would have been able to play the game in it's entirety in 1st person because that is your choice, and it would not have impacted your game play at all.

A lot of people use this mod and play multiplayer, same for far cry 4 and 5, and borderlands and the only glitch borderlands has, is that while playing in 3rd person yoru character sometimes will shoot backwards, which is fixed by swapping to 1rst person then swapping back. and this does not negatively impacts the game play of your friends playing in 1st person. It's just preference, and preference does not hurt anybody. It only took about 3 to 4 weeks for this mods to be created, by a single person. Imagine how fast a team of devs can work it into a game.

When we create CGi which has 3D models and assets, and a hell of a lot more time consuming, than creating video games (A 2 minute clip can take weeks to make, from scratch.) sometimes our customers will ask us to change things in it, Change in the scene for example, but once created its not that hard, take chairs and tables or any other kind of furniture. Once you create the asset into the game it's permanently programmed into the application, and you can recreate it, recolor it change colors etc without much effort, it's creating the asset that takes time, but once created it can be copied and replicated, into the entire application. That's how re-texturing modding works in games, you don't go stone by stone, leaf by leaf, or one piece of furniture or character at a time for the entire game. It's the same for angles and camera, as long as the character model is fully present and the assets are included it does not take much work.

Which is why if Hardsuit won't make the change, our hubris, artistic view, or whatever you want to call it. They should at least provide the assets for modders to do it themselves in their tools. Which if they are anything like Divinity 2 originals sin tools, it won't take much effort. Look camera mods, for Divinity 2 and Titan quest, it should bring some perspective as to how a camera angle, can be changed without much effort in games. Most devs just pick angles as an Aesthetic.

I don't want to start an argument, just stating the fact, make of it what you will. People were already banned from this thread, for starting arguments.

I have to say... I'm impressed with your credentials and insight. You and Midgar need to keep the facts coming!
 

CrimsomAmber

Private
On Probation
May 10, 2019
21
0
I prefer 1st person but I'm not against the inclusion of 3rd person for those who can't play otherwise.
I hope they could add it some point, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Then you are a rare occurrence and one of the few. But thank you for that! :D

You can read my quoted message below pertaining cost and time. a change in camera, Is not as time consuming or expensive as some may think. I've been. I have 17 years of experience in modding, and programming, I worked for 3Dexcite, we've worked mostly on CGI, and entertainment industry apps. It's not video games, but it's very closely related. I've also worked mods and overhauls for Bloodlines (Includin the unnoficial patch), skyrim, fallout, divinity original sin, borderlands, mount and blade, ark survival evolved, the witcher 3.

I did mods for Bloodlines for 8 years, and what kept the game alive and turned into a cult classic were those mods. 90% of those mods were created with 3rd person in mind, if Bloodlines had been a 1st person game only, we would not even be talking about it right now. This mods is what drove the community to play the game, and that community what drove modders to keep working on it for years. If Paradox and Harsuit ignore this fact, they will be making a huge mistake.

You referred to Dying Light which has a 3rd person mod, this mod proves that the devs could have included 3rd person into the game if they wanted. The mod didn't take much effort to make, but unfortunately it was missing animations, which could not be added into the game. They could have offered mod tools to make it possible or just patched it into the game themselves. It would not have changed, the design, or the mechanics of the game, nor negatively affect the process, nor a combat redesign, nor the game world. You would have been able to play the game in it's entirety in 1st person because that is your choice, and it would not have impacted your game play at all.

A lot of people use this mod and play multiplayer, same for far cry 4 and 5, and borderlands and the only glitch borderlands has, is that while playing in 3rd person yoru character sometimes will shoot backwards, which is fixed by swapping to 1rst person then swapping back. and this does not negatively impacts the game play of your friends playing in 1st person. It's just preference, and preference does not hurt anybody. It only took about 3 to 4 weeks for this mods to be created, by a single person. Imagine how fast a team of devs can work it into a game.

When we create CGi which has 3D models and assets, and a hell of a lot more time consuming, than creating video games (A 2 minute clip can take weeks to make, from scratch.) sometimes our customers will ask us to change things in it, Change in the scene for example, but once created its not that hard, take chairs and tables or any other kind of furniture. Once you create the asset into the game it's permanently programmed into the application, and you can recreate it, recolor it change colors etc without much effort, it's creating the asset that takes time, but once created it can be copied and replicated, into the entire application. That's how re-texturing modding works in games, you don't go stone by stone, leaf by leaf, or one piece of furniture or character at a time for the entire game. It's the same for angles and camera, as long as the character model is fully present and the assets are included it does not take much work.

Which is why if Hardsuit won't make the change, our hubris, artistic view, or whatever you want to call it. They should at least provide the assets for modders to do it themselves in their tools. Which if they are anything like Divinity 2 originals sin tools, it won't take much effort. Look camera mods, for Divinity 2 and Titan quest, it should bring some perspective as to how a camera angle, can be changed without much effort in games. Most devs just pick angles as an Aesthetic.

I don't want to start an argument, just stating the fact, make of it what you will. People were already banned from this thread, for starting arguments.

That's why your mods have always been amazing!

Wow! This is really good info! I really hope the devs dont choose to leave the thousands of us, who cant play due to motion sickness, just out of hubris and their personal preference!

Thanks for this info.

Remember what TinyWiking said, just ignore those trying to instigate and argument and more on.


Well my clan was revealed today, which will just be the more disappointing to me, if we cannot play in 3rd person. I hope I will be able to see my beatiful toreador, fighting, feeding and strutting around the game world. A girl can only hope. :(
 
Last edited:

Vampfan

Corporal
On Probation
Apr 29, 2019
27
0
Remember what TinyWiking said, just ignore those trying to instigate and argument and more on.


Well my clan was revealed today, which will just be the more disappointing to me, if we cannot play in 3rd person. I hope I will be able to see my beatiful toreador, fighting, feeding and strutting around the game world. A girl can only hope. :(

No worries! I have a list of those to avoid and a very helpful ignore option.

At least your favorite clan has been unveiled, but I understand the feeling of wanting to play in 3rd person!

I prefer 1st person but I'm not against the inclusion of 3rd person for those who can't play otherwise.
I hope they could add it some point, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

If only more people were as understanding as you! At least theres still the other Masquerade Gane and Werewolf, and if all else fails a mod for this! Lol
 

LordTremere

Corporal
On Probation
May 8, 2019
34
0
I have to say... I'm impressed with your credentials and insight. You and Midgar need to keep the facts coming!

That's why I'm here, I'm also one of those who found recently the game does not include 3rd person. I didn't even watch the game's reveal event, I just assumed they would include both views, like in the first one.
 

Magister Tremere

Sergeant
Mar 26, 2019
76
20
That's why I'm here, I'm also one of those who found recently the game does not include 3rd person. I didn't even watch the game's reveal event, I just assumed they would include both views, like in the first one.

I hear you... I was so psyched that I was prepared to break protocol and pre-order until I found out it was first-person only. #pumpthebrakes
 

ToreadorVanitas

Private
On Probation
May 15, 2019
14
0
I'm throwing my 2 cents from the pool, I've also was part of planet vampire, until it crumbled into the ground when the MMO was cancelled. It is true, the community was more united then than it is, now.

I just found out the game is 1st person only. I assumed since the 1st one had both view that this one would too. Being a female who spends more time in front of the mirror than anybody should looking at myself. I prefer 3rd person, I like to play my characters as an extension of myself. I like to see how that reflection of me acts, fights, and talks in the game world. I don't want to be a disembodied set of hands floating in front of a camera.

The World of Darkness is huge, and it's probably the PnP and Roleplaying community with the most females I have ever seen, and we females like to see ourselves. That's the point of view from a girl, who hopes 3rd person will be included in the game. I do feel sorry for those of you and I've seen many in this thread, who wouldn't be able to play otherwise, and I hope the developers make a comment, though I doubt it on this matter.

Also what's up with the avatars, they are all fugly! Let me use my own! lol

They are definitely not taking into consideration the female perspective. I completely agree! This is just idiotic, why make a game based on freedom of choice, to be the character you want to be, then limit it to 1st person? Such an idiot move. I also like to see a reflection of myself realized in the game world, not play a pair of disembodied hands, or a camera with limbs.

I hear you... I was so psyched that I was prepared to break protocol and pre-order until I found out it was first-person only. #pumpthebrakes

I pre-ordered this game as soon as it came up on my steam page, I'm an avid fan of the WOD, both tabletop and the first Bloodlines. I just watched, the small video teaser for Toreador, then notice the footage at the end was in 1st person. I rushed to this forum to find this thread, why can't it be like the first game and have both views? Such a dumb move, they will alienate millions of fans. I cancelled my pre-order, I will wait and see what devs are going to do about this.
 

Jia Xu

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I will wait and see what devs are going to do about this.

You don't need to wait. We've already heard an official response in this topic which says that the game is an immersive first-person only experience. There will, however, be some select moments where third-person view is used. The vast super majority of the game will be first-person only. I hope that clears up any confusion you may have had and welcome to the forums.
 

ToreadorVanitas

Private
On Probation
May 15, 2019
14
0
You don't need to wait. We've already heard an official response in this topic which says that the game is an immersive first-person only experience. There will, however, be some select moments where third-person view is used. The vast super majority of the game will be first-person only. I hope that clears up any confusion you may have had and welcome to the forums.

Yes, I read through the entire thread before posting, I am aware of that. However I am here to lend my voice, I signed the petition.

Thank you for the welcome however.

You can read my quoted message below pertaining cost and time. a change in camera, Is not as time consuming or expensive as some may think. I've been. I have 17 years of experience in modding, and programming, I worked for 3Dexcite, we've worked mostly on CGI, and entertainment industry apps. It's not video games, but it's very closely related. I've also worked mods and overhauls for Bloodlines (Includin the unnoficial patch), skyrim, fallout, divinity original sin, borderlands, mount and blade, ark survival evolved, the witcher 3.

I did mods for Bloodlines for 8 years, and what kept the game alive and turned into a cult classic were those mods. 90% of those mods were created with 3rd person in mind, if Bloodlines had been a 1st person game only, we would not even be talking about it right now. This mods is what drove the community to play the game, and that community what drove modders to keep working on it for years. If Paradox and Harsuit ignore this fact, they will be making a huge mistake.

You referred to Dying Light which has a 3rd person mod, this mod proves that the devs could have included 3rd person into the game if they wanted. The mod didn't take much effort to make, but unfortunately it was missing animations, which could not be added into the game. They could have offered mod tools to make it possible or just patched it into the game themselves. It would not have changed, the design, or the mechanics of the game, nor negatively affect the process, nor a combat redesign, nor the game world. You would have been able to play the game in it's entirety in 1st person because that is your choice, and it would not have impacted your game play at all.

A lot of people use this mod and play multiplayer, same for far cry 4 and 5, and borderlands and the only glitch borderlands has, is that while playing in 3rd person yoru character sometimes will shoot backwards, which is fixed by swapping to 1rst person then swapping back. and this does not negatively impacts the game play of your friends playing in 1st person. It's just preference, and preference does not hurt anybody. It only took about 3 to 4 weeks for this mods to be created, by a single person. Imagine how fast a team of devs can work it into a game.

When we create CGi which has 3D models and assets, and a hell of a lot more time consuming, than creating video games (A 2 minute clip can take weeks to make, from scratch.) sometimes our customers will ask us to change things in it, Change in the scene for example, but once created its not that hard, take chairs and tables or any other kind of furniture. Once you create the asset into the game it's permanently programmed into the application, and you can recreate it, recolor it change colors etc without much effort, it's creating the asset that takes time, but once created it can be copied and replicated, into the entire application. That's how re-texturing modding works in games, you don't go stone by stone, leaf by leaf, or one piece of furniture or character at a time for the entire game. It's the same for angles and camera, as long as the character model is fully present and the assets are included it does not take much work.

Which is why if Hardsuit won't make the change, our hubris, artistic view, or whatever you want to call it. They should at least provide the assets for modders to do it themselves in their tools. Which if they are anything like Divinity 2 originals sin tools, it won't take much effort. Look camera mods, for Divinity 2 and Titan quest, it should bring some perspective as to how a camera angle, can be changed without much effort in games. Most devs just pick angles as an Aesthetic.

I don't want to start an argument, just stating the fact, make of it what you will. People were already banned from this thread, for starting arguments.

This person seems to know what he is talking about, and if he is who I think he is. Then I have also used his mods for Bloodlines. No offense but while a mod would be great, I rather see the devs implement it in house. But if a mod is the only choice, then so be it as long as there is 3rd person, I don't care how it's done.
 

Jia Xu

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But if a mod is the only choice, then so be it as long as there is 3rd person, I don't care how it's done.

Even if a mod is possible (which isn't guaranteed at all), developing such a mod could take years. We could get the game in 2020 and your third-person mod might not be fully complete until 2022 or something. Be prepared for the scenario where you have to watch everyone else having fun with the game while you wait, if the issue of the camera is really a deal breaker for you.

Being a modder on the Paradox Interactive forums isn't much of a distinction. There are literally hundreds of modders around here. lol

I'm also a modder but that doesn't mean I have any knowledge of the code base of an entirely new game which I haven't even installed before. Being a modder doesn't even lead to becoming an expert on anything except for modding the very specific game that you mod. The idea that being a modder on an old game makes you some kind of authority of the guts of a code base on a NEW game is really kind of silly if you ask me. What I'm trying to say is that anyone who isn't a programmer at Hardsuit has no idea how easy or hard it will really be to attempt the camera mod you're looking for. Anyone who says otherwise is misleading you!

Well, cheers and good luck! I hope you find a solution that works for you in the end. :)
 
Last edited:

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I also like to see a reflection of myself realized in the game world, not play a pair of disembodied hands, or a camera with limbs..

Who says you're a pair of disembodied hands or a camera with limbs? DOesn't look like that for me.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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Who says you're a pair of disembodied hands or a camera with limbs? DOesn't look like that for me.

You can't be... they're offering clothes and other cosmetics as pre-order bonuses and event unlocks. In a developer stream they even talked about having character customization options. They're going to have character models.

Now I don't know enough about the technical aspects of game design to know how hard that will or will not make it to mod a 3rd party version. But that's the starting point, not disembodied hands and feet.
 

ToreadorVanitas

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Even if a mod is possible (which isn't guaranteed at all), developing such a mod could take years. We could get the game in 2020 and your third-person mod might not be fully complete until 2022 or something. Be prepared for the scenario where you have to watch everyone else having fun with the game while you wait, if the issue of the camera is really a deal breaker for you.

Being a modder on the Paradox Interactive forums isn't much of a distinction. There are literally hundreds of modders around here. lol

I'm also a modder but that doesn't mean I have any knowledge of the code base of an entirely new game which I haven't even installed before. Being a modder doesn't even lead to becoming an expert on anything except for modding the very specific game that you mod. The idea that being a modder on an old game makes you some kind of authority of the guts of a code base on a NEW game is really kind of silly if you ask me. What I'm trying to say is that anyone who isn't a programmer at Hardsuit has no idea how easy or hard it will really be to attempt the camera mod you're looking for. Anyone who says otherwise is misleading you!

Well, cheers and good luck! I hope you find a solution that works for you in the end. :)

I completely disagree, 3rd person mods were made for Farcry 4 and 5 in a matter of months, with no modding tools. Dying light was modded in weeks, in Borderlands 2 it's so easy that you can swap back and forth with cheat engine, you don't even need to modify any of the files. Kingdom Come deliverance had a 3rd person mod 3 months after release. But in any case, I'm not here to request a mod, I'm here for the petition.

And no disrespect, but most of paradox games are so simple, I'm not surprised almost anybody could mod them.
 

LordTremere

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You can't be... they're offering clothes and other cosmetics as pre-order bonuses and event unlocks. In a developer stream they even talked about having character customization options. They're going to have character models.

Now I don't know enough about the technical aspects of game design to know how hard that will or will not make it to mod a 3rd party version. But that's the starting point, not disembodied hands and feet.

That is usually the case, when there is character creation. Usually there are models present, which makes 3rd person mods possible. That is why all games with multiplayer and character creation, have a 3rd person mod.

I completely disagree, 3rd person mods were made for Farcry 4 and 5 in a matter of months, with no modding tools. Dying light was modded in weeks, in Borderlands 2 it's so easy that you can swap back and forth with cheat engine, you don't even need to modify any of the files. Kingdom Come deliverance had a 3rd person mod 3 months after release. But in any case, I'm not here to request a mod, I'm here for the petition.

And no disrespect, but most of paradox games are so simple, I'm not surprised almost anybody could mod them.

And keep in mind, this game you mentioned had no mod support what so ever. Some were reverse engineered, and it only took a matter of weeks or couple of months. So I wouldn't pay much attention, to what some are saying.
 

Jia Xu

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I completely disagree, 3rd person mods were made for Farcry 4 and 5 in a matter of months, with no modding tools. Dying light was modded in weeks, in Borderlands 2 it's so easy that you can swap back and forth with cheat engine, you don't even need to modify any of the files. Kingdom Come deliverance had a 3rd person mod 3 months after release. But in any case, I'm not here to request a mod, I'm here for the petition.

And no disrespect, but most of paradox games are so simple, I'm not surprised almost anybody could mod them.
I'm not saying that it will take a long time. I'm saying that it could take a long time. None of those games you mentioned are this game. This is exactly what I was talking about. Using modding in unrelated games to pretend to be an expert on this game. You know what I mean? For example, the recent Resident Evil 2 remake had a first-person mod developed for it, fairly quickly. However, that mod is also a buggy mess that rarely works properly. Developing a good mod to completion can take some time.

Try not to listen to people who give themselves fake modding accolades. The only people who are experts on modding BL2 are BL2 modders and those don't exist yet.
 

Vampfan

Corporal
On Probation
Apr 29, 2019
27
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I completely disagree, 3rd person mods were made for Farcry 4 and 5 in a matter of months, with no modding tools. Dying light was modded in weeks, in Borderlands 2 it's so easy that you can swap back and forth with cheat engine, you don't even need to modify any of the files. Kingdom Come deliverance had a 3rd person mod 3 months after release. But in any case, I'm not here to request a mod, I'm here for the petition.

And no disrespect, but most of paradox games are so simple, I'm not surprised almost anybody could mod them.

I wouldn't get into an argument with him. It leads nowhere fast and you gain nothing from it. Just let it be. Lol

Welcome!
 

Midgar

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I completely disagree, 3rd person mods were made for Farcry 4 and 5 in a matter of months, with no modding tools. Dying light was modded in weeks, in Borderlands 2 it's so easy that you can swap back and forth with cheat engine, you don't even need to modify any of the files. Kingdom Come deliverance had a 3rd person mod 3 months after release. But in any case, I'm not here to request a mod, I'm here for the petition.

And no disrespect, but most of paradox games are so simple, I'm not surprised almost anybody could mod them.

I wouldn't get into an argument with him. It leads nowhere fast and you gain nothing from it. Just let it be. Lol

Welcome!

I would listen to Vampfan, it's not worth an the trouble, and we've been warned not to ignite arguments hence the thread can be locked. There's already plenty of information, both on this thread and the one in my signature, which offers real insight backed up by real world data. Not opinions.
 

Jia Xu

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I would listen to Vampfan, it's not worth an the trouble, and we've been warned not to ignite arguments hence the thread can be locked. There's already plenty of information, both on this thread and the one in my signature, which offers real insight backed up by real world data. Not opinions.
Well, no. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you, friend. You've posted a lot of simply bad information. Just lots of things that were proven to be 100% objectively untrue. For example, you claimed that CD Projekt RED was changing Cyberpunk 2077 to add in third person view and that was proven to be 100% false.
 

ToreadorVanitas

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14
0
Well, no. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you, friend. You've posted a lot of simply bad information. Just lots of things that were proven to be 100% objectively untrue. For example, you claimed that CD Projekt RED was changing Cyberpunk 2077 to add in third person view and that was proven to be 100% false.

That's probably because, there's been rumors floating around that CD Projekt Red, will be unveiling a 3rd person free roam for the game at E3. It was on the reddit before being removed, as well as the steam forums. I couldn't care less about cyberpunk though.

In any case they are right, after reading previous comments by you, it's not worth it. Ignored.
 

CrimsomAmber

Private
On Probation
May 10, 2019
21
0
They are definitely not taking into consideration the female perspective. I completely agree! This is just idiotic, why make a game based on freedom of choice, to be the character you want to be, then limit it to 1st person? Such an idiot move. I also like to see a reflection of myself realized in the game world, not play a pair of disembodied hands, or a camera with limbs.

I pre-ordered this game as soon as it came up on my steam page, I'm an avid fan of the WOD, both tabletop and the first Bloodlines. I just watched, the small video teaser for Toreador, then notice the footage at the end was in 1st person. I rushed to this forum to find this thread, why can't it be like the first game and have both views? Such a dumb move, they will alienate millions of fans. I cancelled my pre-order, I will wait and see what devs are going to do about this.

Welcome to the forum girl! It's nice to see another like minded WOD farn, that understand how important cosmetics, customization, and how important it is for us to be able to see this customization. Just like looking in the mirror or taking a selfie! And they wonder why we are obsessed with looking at ourselves right? lol

Welcome! :D
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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I guess I'll weigh in on the actual topic of the thread....

I prefer playing melee focused games in a third party point of view. It lets me see and appreciate the combat animations and gives the fight a more dynamic feel. Being trapped in a first person point of view for melee combat makes me feel claustrophobic and makes me very aware that I can't turn my "head" or shift my perspective in a realistic way.

Same for stealth focused games. I know they can't program the game so that I can peek a corner and it means that sneaking in a first person pov for a computer game is just a massive frustration to me.
 
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