3rd Armored Division balance thread
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ranked games...we are talking apples and oranges...im talking unraked for the mass of players not ranked...and that is why i didnt play ranked
I think the Shermans need a little loving, a lot of their real strengths aren't translated to the game. Could use a rate of fire and accuracy buffs. Especially the the 76 sherman. The 76mm M1 gun should be more accurate, have a higher rof and lower ap then the 17 pounder. For games sake I'd put them on par in terms of accuracy with a possible 7 rpm for the 76 Sherman. Im not sure if the towed 76mm at gun is different from the one in the 76 Sherman but maybe the tanks ap should match it at 14ap at 1200m. All this would help phase c without getting too nuts or adding more units. The Panthers will still maintain complete Superiority in long range sluggfest. I do also feel the jumbo Sherman could use a little Nerf it's kinda silly but we still haven't seen tigers and KTs yet so idk. Also it feels heavy tanks can turn and face their front armor a little to quickly when being ambushed.
Put in my 20 cent.
Just without any thoughts about quality of tanks and so on, just look at that:
12thPz may max have 33 tanks (FF+20 PzIV(J\H)+12PzV(G))
3rd armor may max have 32 tanks (5 M5+18M4A3(75)+9M4A3(76))
And Panzer division tanks cost 770 points more, than US ones. This only may say, that 3rd armor may actually spawn armor in significant numbers, alongside 12Pz is forced to count every point to call in single tank (and yes T-5G is not godlike against big numbers of Shermans, in personal fight yes, but not against 2-3). And all this is going over 70/115/135 vs 65/105/150, that mean, 12thPz may spawn FF after 3 mins, PzIV every 1.5-2 mins (or at start), and PzV every 3-2.5 mins (if not buying anything else), meanwhile 3rd armor may spawn M5 every 1.5-2 mins (or all at start), M4A3(75) every 2-1.5 min, and M4A3(76) every 1.5 min.
Also 3rd Armor may have 30(!!!) Units of mech.inf against 28 unit of panzer grenadiers, at leas 4 of wich as motorised (moving on trucks, not APC), so panzer division have only 24 realy mechanized infantry units (yes 16 of them are vets, but there is not visible difference between them)... and so on.
UPD: I didn`t cout "support" units where 3rd armor have M4A3(105), I did that only because (105) haven`t any AP shells.
Just without any thoughts about quality of tanks and so on, just look at that:
12thPz may max have 33 tanks (FF+20 PzIV(J\H)+12PzV(G))
3rd armor may max have 32 tanks (5 M5+18M4A3(75)+9M4A3(76))
And Panzer division tanks cost 770 points more, than US ones. This only may say, that 3rd armor may actually spawn armor in significant numbers, alongside 12Pz is forced to count every point to call in single tank (and yes T-5G is not godlike against big numbers of Shermans, in personal fight yes, but not against 2-3). And all this is going over 70/115/135 vs 65/105/150, that mean, 12thPz may spawn FF after 3 mins, PzIV every 1.5-2 mins (or at start), and PzV every 3-2.5 mins (if not buying anything else), meanwhile 3rd armor may spawn M5 every 1.5-2 mins (or all at start), M4A3(75) every 2-1.5 min, and M4A3(76) every 1.5 min.
Also 3rd Armor may have 30(!!!) Units of mech.inf against 28 unit of panzer grenadiers, at leas 4 of wich as motorised (moving on trucks, not APC), so panzer division have only 24 realy mechanized infantry units (yes 16 of them are vets, but there is not visible difference between them)... and so on.
UPD: I didn`t cout "support" units where 3rd armor have M4A3(105), I did that only because (105) haven`t any AP shells.
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IRL M4A3 76 and Panther had similar aimed RoF. Both their RoF in game should be higher.
76mm accuracy doesn't need to go up, 17 pdr needs to go down. The 76mm AP is correct, doesn't need to be changed. Tank mounted 17 pdr RoF should go down, and it needs its HE shells removed. Ofc assuming historical accuracy is the aim here but who knows at this point since there are so many stat inconsistencies, but I think they are placeholder/balance related.
Both need to go up. 16% chance to hit at 1000m is a ludicrous fantasy, anything below 40% CTH at 1000m is reserved for panicked units or barely aimed shots.
Lolwut?
Just now single panter destroys group of 3 my M4A3(75mm) by 4 shots in head to head at 800-900 meters! and it's a common situation! Groups of 2-3 shermans with Jumbo just can force it to run temporarily, but it's no chance to destroy it at all. But Panter have real chances to just kill 'em all instead. All you can is just ambush it by M5 76mm or wait for miracles like succeful bombing or when panter goes to close to your pricey and shitty arm.rifles.
This was obviously made for gameplay reasons. Vetted units have a pretty good chance to hit on the first shot though.
"Gameplay reasons" isn't a valid excuse when wargames since 1981 have used better accuracy models and it never broke gameplay or turned them into campfests. And yes, veterancy is ridiculously overstated along with command units providing such horrifyingly large bonuses to units they might as well be called buff wizards instead of platoon commanders.
Did you play Red Dragon? Super accurate AT can make the game a sitfest.
Yes, everyone has played RD, but dropping hit chance from 90% guaranteed hit to 8% or 16% guaranteed miss is absolutely insane and completely broken. Not only does this make the game less realistic, it doesn't help gameplay at all. As has been stated about a million times before, this model rewards terrible judgement and awareness while simultaneously punishing decent tacticians.
No, i never touched any of those games and i'm basing my suggestions on my complete and utter ignorance. It's not like highly accurate units worked for literally every single other wargame out there to date, be it board games or computer games and Eugen has refused to acknowledge this to this very date. Your premise that the game turns into a sitzkrieg with highly accurate units just exposes your lack of understanding on actual maneuver warfare.
My suggestions were based off the accuracy of the guns relative to one another in game compared to RL. Obviously in real life tanks were way way more accurate.
And like Fussel said the poor acc is obviously for gameplay reasons, I think Eugen already ran internal tests with high accuracy and it turned out poorly. The poor accuracy is also probably there to make command units and veteran units more valuable. 2 star 17pdr and Panthers first shot at max range is ~55%, then second shot is ~75% so I mean it's not like you can't get good accuracy at all.
I think if high accuracy would have been good Eugen would already have made their game that way... but idk.
The 76mm should be more accurate than the 17 pdr, so just give it 7 accuracy instead of 5 and leave the 17 pounder at 6. And repeating the same argument of "gameplay reasons" that has not a single shred of evidence to support it across the entire industry of computer wargaming for the past 20 or so years will not make this true. Considering the shit show that was accuracy in European Escalation and the consistency of those stats across their roster of games, i doubt they ever conducted any sort of serious testing with "realistic" accuracy values ever since they started the wargame series.
Giving it 7 accuracy will make it just as accurate as the KwK 42 and KwK 43 which is completely unrealistic considering it's muzzle velocity is 150-200m/s lower than both of those guns with a similar mechanical accuracy and worse gun sights...
And I am not giving excuses for the poor accuracy of the guns in game, just explaining the likely reasons why the game is that way.
What makes that game a 'sitfest' is hyper-lethal artillery, which converts the game to Artillery whack-a-mole.
The current state of accuracy, as I've seen in game-play videos, is both comical and harmful as it makes things like flanking not worth even attempting.
Abstracting something like accuracy, which is largely based on people rather than hard numbers, is one thing. But making it so tanks sit there aiming at one another for minutes at a time without a hit is silly. Reminds me of Company of Heroes, where tanks would sit there bouncing off each other at point blank range.
The reticule is no worse than the German ones. The German sights merely have provisions for range estimation - a factor that does not play a role at the engagement ranges in this game.
