3rd Armored Division balance thread

[Sakuzhi]

Jumbo had more like 140-150 effective armor in its ufp. It is reduced because of the well known phenoimenon when the two plates of the same thickness lose to a single plate of 100mm. Probably has to do with the fact that the shell gets to normalize on both of the sandwiched plates.

In war thunder 100mm jumbo UFP is slightly less effective then 80 mm panther's ufp.

In any way the 200 mm we have in game is hugely overmodeled. Instead of 20 it should be ~15.

I already calculated it actually.

It's about 90mm~ at a 47 degree angle, which against a 88mm APCBC or 75mm APCBC is in the 170mm mark.

Try using the entire formula, and keep in mind I've done the math on this at least 3 separate times, the only Shell(s) that the Jumbos UFP is 'effectively' 140-150mm is if, and only if, you are looking at the 85mm AP (non-Capped AP rounds) that the Russians had. But all of the AP rounds available to both the Tiger(s) and Panther(s) have Caps (minus the APCR but that's the worst possible shell to try and penetrate a Jumbos UFP with).

Warthunders formula's are garbage and should be discarded, use the equations directly from the WWII armor, ballistics and Gunnery Guide and it will serve you far more than WT (because lel, they are 18 types of wrong).

Furthermore, keep in mind the Panthers UFP is at a bit more of an angle than the Jumbo's is.

 

[Think Tanker]

I think the biggest thing that could help this deck feel more like a US armored spearhead would be decreasing sherman price, if Eugen is going to try and juggle both division specific unit prices as well as the whole division and phase specific income system, this is the ideal scenario to implement it. If we don't want 3rd armored getting more income and then players just spending it all on not-shermans, we could just keep the income the same and make shermans cheaper for them to call in.

I agree to an extent, but I also think that a bit more vet for the 76mm Shermans would be greatly appreciated, and make them a bit better in their intended field. That, or increase their availability in Phase B & C.

 

[Think Tanker]

I already calculated it actually.

It's about 90mm~ at a 47 degree angle, which against a 88mm APCBC or 75mm APCBC is in the 170mm mark.

Try using the entire formula, and keep in mind I've done the math on this at least 3 separate times, the only Shell(s) that the Jumbos UFP is 'effectively' 140-150mm is if, and only if, you are looking at the 85mm AP (non-Capped AP rounds) that the Russians had. But all of the AP rounds available to both the Tiger(s) and Panther(s) have Caps (minus the APCR but that's the worst possible shell to try and penetrate a Jumbos UFP with).

Warthunders formula's are garbage and should be discarded, use the equations directly from the WWII armor, ballistics and Gunnery Guide and it will serve you far more than WT (because lel, they are 18 types of wrong).

Furthermore, keep in mind the Panthers UFP is at a bit more of an angle than the Jumbo's is.

Could penetrate it at point-blank range, yes. But, two points. First, the glacis would be impregnable by "short" 75mm guns found on Panzer IVs, still the most common tank which Germany had as of this time. And secondly, this plate was sufficient enough to provide protection against "short" 88mm fire from ranges of 800m or above. Considering that the US doctrine of the time was to go hull-down whenever possible, the glacis was adequately armored nonetheless.

 

[Sakuzhi]

Could penetrate it at point-blank range, yes. But, two points. First, the glacis would be impregnable by "short" 75mm guns found on Panzer IVs, still the most common tank which Germany had as of this time. And secondly, this plate was sufficient enough to provide protection against "short" 88mm fire from ranges of 800m or above. Considering that the US doctrine of the time was to go hull-down whenever possible, the glacis was adequately armored nonetheless.

So..Yeah, I was saying that it was immune to the 75mm/48.

It is also immune to the 88mm KwK 56. I don't quite know where you insist on pulling out a purely imaginary range band for the 88mm/56 is.

Layered plate: 38/63mm is 95% effective thus 96.1 (I've seen estimates also in the 92~ range).

.3127x((38/63)^.2439)x(101)^..2439=.95 or 95% effective. 95%*101=96.1mm

So that's step one. Step 2.

Slope effect @ Angle: As it's at 47 degrees which is between the values of 45 and 50. Averaging them out (it'll be close either way honestly) as 1.9493/.1845.
Which is 1.9493x(88/96.1)^.1845 or 1.981 which is the slope effect.

Then it's 96.1mm*1.981=190mm.

The 88mm/56 has 162mm penetration at 100 meters.

The Jumbo is 'immune' to the Short 88, as well as the 75mm/70. There is exactly two spots that can be penetrated, the MG port and the front turret under the Gun mask, which is less than 7 inches high and is also 156mm thick making it nearly impossible (outright so after 250m ifyou use the 'loosest' penetration values to give the 88mm more than it should have) even if the Tiger hit it there in the first place.

 

[Think Tanker]

So..Yeah, I was saying that it was immune to the 75mm/48.

It is also immune to the 88mm KwK 56. I don't quite know where you insist on pulling out a purely imaginary range band for the 88mm/56 is.

Layered plate: 38/63mm is 95% effective thus 96.1 (I've seen estimates also in the 92~ range).

.3127x((38/63)^.2439)x(101)^..2439=.95 or 95% effective. 95%*101=96.1mm

So that's step one. Step 2.

Slope effect @ Angle: As it's at 47 degrees which is between the values of 45 and 50. Averaging them out (it'll be close either way honestly) as 1.9493/.1845.
Which is 1.9493x(88/96.1)^.1845 or 1.981 which is the slope effect.

Then it's 96.1mm*1.981=190mm.

The 88mm/56 has 162mm penetration at 100 meters.

The Jumbo is 'immune' to the Short 88, as well as the 75mm/70. There is exactly two spots that can be penetrated, the MG port and the front turret under the Gun mask, which is less than 7 inches high and is also 156mm thick making it nearly impossible (outright so after 250m ifyou use the 'loosest' penetration values to give the 88mm more than it should have) even if the Tiger hit it there in the first place.

Using my own math and numbers, a 47 degree slope is only a modifier of ~x1.37, with angles only approaching x2.0 at 30 degree slopes. That is where I was able to draw a rough 800m figure for a standard 88mm.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Pretty really sure you aren't going to kill a Panther with a 75mm Sherman.

Pretty really sure I've never see it, or done it in this game. Seen the Panther get forced to withdraw, but not taken out by it, at least not since they buffed the AV values.

You can do it with a flank shot, but its a total roll of the dice given 75mm accuracy.

 

[Max_Damage]

3rd armored has 0.00000 problems with the panthers and is a much better deck then a 12 ss.
The double star 76 mm at guns are godlike.

Also notice i have 2 sherman m4a3 they are really good. With the fire support they bring to the table they dominate lategame. However i could agree they are more suitable in phase C then in B because in B i buy a jumbo or 2. It is sherman 76 which i actually find not buying. Between godmode jumbo, sniper 76 AT and fire support 75 i dont really need those sherman 76.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Against experienced players the 76 atg does not cut it. It will get nuked. And it doesnt cut it against panthers to begin with unless you can force them into an unfavorable engagement, which sherman 76 is much better at.

 

[Max_Damage]

Against experienced players the 76 atg does not cut it. It will get nuked. And it doesnt cut it against panthers to begin with unless you can force them into an unfavorable engagement, which sherman 76 is much better at.

Sherman 76 can be used vs panthers but only as a stationary deterrant and at 0.75 or better 0.5 range. It is much worse against the good players because it lacks fire support and is a sitting duck. Its really a 76mm at gun without stealth, more expensive but protected from mortars ofc. m4a3 will be cheaper and will do more damage. Also more card efficient.

76 ATG has much better chance to hit(58% vs 42% first shot) and can be towed with a standart 35 kmh turbo halftrack 3ad gets. Its pretty awesome when microed. If you use a commander nearby it gets 72% first shot. Bef Panthers will die starting from 900 m frontally.

 

[Radioshow]

It would be nice to get some of that Phase C income spread out a little more, even if just more in B. I'm finding all that Phase C income to be almost useless. Maybe make it a Phase B deck. I can get by just barely in Phase A but B should be more, maybe switch B/C income. Then maybe you could buy some Sherman's when they can still be used.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

Hi i just looked though the deck and i couldn't fine the m10 cards anywhere. Is bug or is it not meant to be?? I know i think m18 hellcat is possible maybe? I want to shoot tiger with it

 

[KattiValk]

I stand by what I said, you would have done well in Slytherin the 3AD needs a better Phase B (Phase A would also be nice) and the ability to really crank out M4A3s via reduced cost.

Hi i just looked though the deck and i couldn't fine the m10 cards anywhere. Is bug or is it not meant to be?? I know i think m18 hellcat is possible maybe? I want to shoot tiger with it

Eugen made a conscious choice to not give the 3AD any TDs. IIRC it was something about flavor for a tank division not to get TDs, except the 3AD is probably the tank division with the weakest teeth in the game yet also the only one without TDs so....? I honestly can't think of a tank division without a TD that isn't the 3AD actually, and the only division as bad at tank killing as the 3AD is France, which gets to steamroll with based French Phase A income. Hellcats were thought to be OOTF by Eugen, though I'm pretty sure people have sourced evidence for the 2ID to get them.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

I stand by what I said, you would have done well in Slytherin the 3AD needs a better Phase B (Phase A would also be nice) and the ability to really crank out M4A3s via reduced cost.

Eugen made a conscious choice to not give the 3AD any TDs. IIRC it was something about flavor for a tank division not to get TDs, except the 3AD is probably the tank division with the weakest teeth in the game yet also the only one without TDs so....? I honestly can't think of a tank division without a TD that isn't the 3AD actually, and the only division as bad at tank killing as the 3AD is France, which gets to steamroll with based French Phase A income. Hellcats were thought to be OOTF by Eugen, though I'm pretty sure people have sourced evidence for the 2ID to get them.

Maybe m18 hell cat could be canidate. it is fast and has a good gun
my pick is the m10 though

 

[Yung Rommel]

3 AD could use +1 AT slot and slight infantry buffs. Option to get vetted LMG/armored rifles would be nice, and more avail for both. MMG teams in A would be a godsend as well.