3rd Armored Division balance thread

[Tankhunter__]

Yer air power seems a little funny, I don't think I've managed to kill a german phase B tank yet with airpower, which is a little odd as the British RP-3 (the one with 60lb of explosive) was supposed to be able to take out a Tiger.

It would be nice to see more single role ground attack aircraft like the duck, maybe a Mosquito or B-26, Would, love to see the Mosquito with the 57mm or the B-26 with the 75mm. I do love ground pound aircraft

The B-25(not B-26) with 75mm gun was used in the anti-shipping role.

Air to ground rockets were notoriously inaccurate. Air power actually accounted for very few destroyed tanks or other heavy AFVs. They generally either de-tracked or otherwise superficially damaged those heavy vehicles. Air power was extremely effective against lighter AFVs and unarmored vehicles.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

If they ever decide to let the FlaK 41 do indirect fire then that rate of fire would be nice.

Considering they didn't give the british 25 pounder its historical rate of fire, which was so fast Alexander McKee noted in Caen: Anvil of Victory "Shell shocked German prisoners ask to see the "belt fed twenty five pounders.", i doubt we'd see anything like that for the FlaK 41.

 

[AV8B]

My tactic for dealing with German tanks is to use the AT rocket planes and continually obstruct LOS with smoke, the closer a Panther is the more even it becomes

With the AT rocket planes I usually do not try to go head on, I use two planes and come from two different sides and it's almost to be a guaranteed kill. I (Can't confirm this) think the rockets do more damage when you hit tanks from the side and rear.

3rd armored has to put in some work to deal with panthers though, difficult but not impossible. I like the Scots more, they're easily able to hold their own in A, B and C.

Scots feel like they can do everything third armored does, except have mechanized infantry which sucks in the bocage, but is great in pretty much every other situation.

3rd armored seems to do really well when there are hedgerows and just generally broken line of sight, so it's critical to use smoke and terrain effectively when playing them.

This analysis is not based off stats, just me playing the game.

 

[IS-2]

this thread made me curious to try 3AD for myself since I don't play allies so I went ahead and did that joined up a 4v4 carebear match and I have to say this division is ABSURD in phase C. the amount of goons you can spam is actually hilarious. The Jumbo is SO OP underpriced by at least 40 points. I pushed into what I think was a whole player and half his buddy ended up coasting 70% of the way to the enemy spawn with GOON Stuarts in phase A it was pretty funny. rifles suck compared to pz grens at range but once you close in you can blast em with Garands.

Against Panthers my opponent didn't really get a chance to deploy them until the match ended. I blasted one Panther with a flank shot from a 57mm and YOLO'd a Befehls Panther with M4A3 76 but the match ended. the amount of goons this division can spam in phase C is comical.

what I liked about this division compared to 12th SS:

- Mortar half track has double the ammo of the one in 12th SS. in fact I am so used to using the German one i stopped microing it thinking it was out of ammo.
- Good choice of AT guns. Elite 76mm are beast. 57mm> PaK 38, elite M1 > PaK 40.
- Phase C goon spam.
- Jumbo is blatantly overpowered.
- Shermans are just cheap and good enough to shoot anything around their price range. Once you hit phase C you can just Goon attack the Panther(s) from many angles.
- Phase B SPG hard counters turtle kids.
- P47 Billy McBob nuke attacks. Also goes faster than Mustang for some reason.... And it's a P-47C XD. unrealistic that it doesn't crash into trees.
- Joe Bob Riflemen aren't that much worse than 12th SS ubersoldaten and are much cheaper.
- 76mm sherman can goon attack Panthers after artillery/aircraft stun cost effectively.
- Hilarious ability to cover the map makes creating flanks very easy and goon strikes easy to set up.

i attach replay if interested: http://www.mediafire.com/file/dw85s45bbxas358/goons.rpl3

i am ShooterMcGee.

 

[Hawt Old Lady]

I think the M21 MMC needs it's range reduced and I agree that halftrack MG's need a suppression nerf.

I really like the 3rd armored and 12th ss dynamic. 3rd can steamroll in phase A with light tanks, inf, and the M21MMC, but the 3rd gets destroyed by a panther force in phase C. I had a close game where the 3rd had early success and stompted me, but then my Panthers came back and the tide turned late B and C. While panthers do stomp in late game, early game the 3rd can do so much damage that you can't recover.

 

[Baron_Mijail]

I think the M21 MMC needs it's range reduced and I agree that halftrack MG's need a suppression nerf.

I really like the 3rd armored and 12th ss dynamic. 3rd can steamroll in phase A with light tanks, inf, and the M21MMC, but the 3rd gets destroyed by a panther force in phase C. I had a close game where the 3rd had early success and stompted me, but then my Panthers came back and the tide turned late B and C. While panthers do stomp in late game, early game the 3rd can do so much damage that you can't recover.

Panther force only stomps at long range, if they get close you can just outgun them with superior numbers and bocage ambush. You dont even need shermans for that, stuarts can deal with panthers at close range and they are way cheaper.
Also +1 to what IS-2 said, jumbo is just way underpriced.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Shermans are too expensive and need availability buff. It's just flat stupid that you get 6 x upvetted Panther G's in Phase C and you only get 9 x upvetted 76(W). This doesn't even cover the fact that I can down vet and takex 12 x Panther G's and the US doesn't even get an option to have down vet with 76(W).

Just go look at 12th SS vs 3rd Armored and the availability of the Shermans over the Panthers is a joke. There isn't any, and there should be.

It's sort of adorable that certain posters in here are acting like there is some obvious unbeatable Sherman spam even in Phase C when you can basically get the same thing or more spam in Panther G's. Not even covering your PzIV's and Panther D's.

Boohoo the Jumbo is hard to kill, but it can't kill anything. GTFO with this nonsense that I need to call in a couple Shermans, a plane and even artillery to stun and then kill a single Panther. So I've got to sink at least twice the number of points to kill a single Panther G when I don't even get the availability to cover attrition.

Come on Eugen, take the real numbers into account when building these availabilities. I don't even care so much about price, though I'd stand by some buffs to both (W)'s, but the avialability for 3rd AD is stupid. Fix it.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

Sherman availability is fine, the problem is their price, they cost over 50% of a Panther while being being 25% as good. It feels like a 20-25 point reduction in the price of the 75mm shermans, along with a buff in their HE damage to match their historical disproportionately effective HE round since now they have the same HE as the 76mm version; And a 15-20 point reduction in the 76 sherman would most likely balance the 3rd AD.

 

[IS-2]

Shermans are too expensive and need availability buff. It's just flat stupid that you get 6 x upvetted Panther G's in Phase C and you only get 9 x upvetted 76(W). This doesn't even cover the fact that I can down vet and tax 12 x Panther G's and the US doesn't even get an option to have down vet with 76(W).

Just go look at 12th SS vs 3rd Armored and the availability of the Shermans over the Panthers is a joke. There isn't any, and there should be.

It's sort of adorable that certain posters in here are acting like there is some obvious unbeatable Sherman spam even in Phase C when you can basically get the same thing or more spam in Panther G's. Not even covering your PzIV's and Panther D's.

Boohoo the Jumbo is hard to kill, but it can't kill anything. GTFO with this nonsense that I need to call in a couple Shermans, a plane and even artillery to stun and then kill a single Panther. So I've got to sink at least twice the number of points to kill a single Panther G when I don't even get the availability to cover attrition.

Come on Eugen, take the real numbers into account when building these availabilities. I don't even care so much about price, though I'd stand by some buffs to both (W)'s, but the avialability for 3rd AD is stupid. Fix it.

Lol.

1. M4A3 76 W was exponentially rarer than Panthers of any type in Normandy. So yeah, Eugen has taken the real numbers when building the availability. It also has better range than KwK 40 mounted in StuG and Pz.IV for absolutely no reason despite the fact that it has very similar ballistic performance and is actually inferior with M62 shell compared to PzGr.

2. You can't spam a 280 point unit. Availability per card of Panthers is worse compared to M4 76 because it is a better tank, but you can get more cards as it should be. You can get a Panther every two minutes if you don't buy anything.

3. Panther D has 1 more armour than a Sherman and no vet. If this tank gives you trouble at the same phase you have Jumbos and 76mm elite AT gun I don't know what to say.

3. Pay attention to facts. Jumbo has 11 AP and 21 armour, Panther ausf G has 18 AP and 13 armour. Once you close 400 meters in they both have a chance of killing each other BUT, the Jumbo costs 100 (!!!) points less. Jumbo can't kill anything? It roflstomps anything other than Panther G and Panther A and is the most cost effective tank in the game by miles in case you haven't noticed.

4. 3 AD has 15 more points income at phase C than 12th SS. Subtract 15 from every unit you have to buy at Phase C as that is essentially the discount you get over the 12th and you can get an idea of how cost effective and powerful this deck can be.

5. Sherman availability is actually very good. M4A3 75 W, a tank equal to the Panzer IV (H) and (J) comes at better availability per card at both vets. M4A3 76 W (an extremely rare tank) has better availability per card than the Panther G at the same vet and has the same amount of cards. Yes you can get more Panther G that are unvet but who the hell would waste activation points on that?

The 75 W is roughly equal to the Panzer IV H so that could be 150 points. The Jumbo is broken, and 76 W is a steal with that income. Don't put your tanks into idiotic engagements...

 

[Vyllis]

IS-2 nailed it.

 

[xFoXReaper]

I don't believe Jumbos are OP. Yet again, people argue that they are because of the ingame circumstances.

I love pushing people's lines with a Jumbo because 99.99% of the times they never have AT guns behind their lines. They think they are somehow unbreakable. You don't need to kill a Jumbo in order to stop him, just nail him with AT guns until it is stressed and fall back, or use airplanes. This happens mostly in Phase B because German players feel overpowered by their 4-6 Pz IV spam.

However, the most overpowered tank in my opinion is the Stuart. That tank is a beast. You can basically dominate Phase A without a problem due to tank spamming. You can one shot Pz. IV at close range and careless Panthers too. If you add the triple MGs you are basically a death machine.

 

[Lith]

my main issue with the american armored is that you only get 1 76mm sherman per card at phase b. While the germans can grab two panthers per card. I personnally dont really have problems dealing with panthers and everything else when im phase c because i simply try to field my 76 shermans on both flanks of my force and a jumbo in the front and that works reasonably well. My issue is in phase b where i find the 75mm shermans unable to reliably take down panther Ds and if the panzer player is not potato he will roll up the jagdpanzers which are a pain in the ass to deal with 75mm shermans and the m1 at gun cant take it down reliably either.
Single 76mm sherman per card at phase b seems unfair should be atleast two.

If it is historrically accurate that there was barely any 76mm shermans present in normandy my fix for this would be not making it a single 76 sherman per card but decrease the cards of 76mm shermans availiable.

For example one card two 76mm shermans at phase b and one card of three 76mm shermans at phase C

 

[xFoXReaper]

my main issue with the american armored is that you only get 1 76mm sherman per card at phase b. While the germans can grab two panthers per card. I personnally dont really have problems dealing with panthers and everything else when im phase c because i simply try to field my 76 shermans on both flanks of my force and a jumbo in the front and that works reasonably well. My issue is in phase b where i find the 75mm shermans unable to reliably take down panther Ds and if the panzer player is not potato he will roll up the jagdpanzers which are a pain in the ass to deal with 75mm shermans and the m1 at gun cant take it down reliably either.
Single 76mm sherman per card at phase b seems unfair should be atleast two.

If it is historrically accurate that there was barely any 76mm shermans present in normandy my fix for this would be not making it a single 76 sherman per card but decrease the cards of 76mm shermans availiable.

For example one card two 76mm shermans at phase b and one card of three 76mm shermans at phase C

You have to take into account the 3rd Armored Division has a much better Phase A than the German counterpart. They only get a Firefly and a peashooter Panzer, so you can pretty much stomp them if you play cautiously with your Stuarts.

You should push hard early in the game so you don't mind losing ground in the next phase when Pz. IV come. Once Phase C starts you can spam and outnumber.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

2. You can't spam a 280 point unit. Availability per card of Panthers is worse compared to M4 76 because it is a better tank, but you can get more cards as it should be. You can get a Panther every two minutes if you don't buy anything.

Last match i played as the Axis by phase C i had 9 Panthers in the field, there is absolutely nothing any Allied deck can do against that. If you're not exceedingly bad at the game you can be cost efficient enough in earlier phases that by phase C you can keep pumping out panthers as if they're going on of style. Nothing but the 9 panthers, a Firefly and 4 wirblewinds pushed from the middle of the map to the enemy spawn destroying half a dozen challengers, a dozen churchills and god knows how many 17 pounders.

Nothing can stop a decent player using Panthers. That coupled with the superbly efficient Firefly makes the 12th. SS impossible to counter if played properly.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Mikeboy]

It's sort of adorable that certain posters in here are acting like there is some obvious unbeatable Sherman spam even in Phase C when you can basically get the same thing or more spam in Panther G's.

You don't have a high enough income to do anything resembling spamming the Panther until the very end of the game, by which point big deal you've already won or lost.

And the 12. SS-Panzer is so absolutely abysmal in Phase A and meh in Phase B that it really needs that Phase C boost.

 

[Deus von Vult]

The problem right now is this:

In early game the 3rd Armored can spam units like hell. But in mid and end game you will just get anhilated by Panthers and Air Force.

Yes, Airforce does not kill all your tanks, but your engine will be damaged, you transmition will not work and so on.

In the last match i was spammed to death by German Air Planes and i had ALL my AA deployed in the last phase.

In my opinion the AA is generally to weak. You can scare the planes, but to shoot down only ONE plane, you need 3/4 of your AA deck.

Furthermore the 3rd. has a major problem with phase B AA, which is nonexistent.

The other point are the panthers in the end game.

80% of games are like this at the moment:

In phase A germans get pushed back by cheap units spam in the early game from the US side.

The german playes then throw in tons of Airforce to hold the spam. After this they put down their panthers.

Now i can leave the game, because i know what will happen.

I am not a bad player, i have managed to kill 4 Panthers by luring them into traps, but the effort was EXTREME!

(And while i was doing so, i was Air spammed like hell)

It would be great, when the 3d. would be less spammy in the early game and could defend itself better against Panther pushes in the end game.

 

[IS-2]

Last match i played as the Axis by phase C i had 9 Panthers in the field, there is absolutely nothing any Allied deck can do against that. If you're not exceedingly bad at the game you can be cost efficient enough in earlier phases that by phase C you can keep pumping out panthers as if they're going on of style. Nothing but the 9 panthers, a Firefly and 4 wirblewinds pushed from the middle of the map to the enemy spawn destroying half a dozen challengers, a dozen churchills and god knows how many 17 pounders.

Nothing can stop a decent player using Panthers. That coupled with the superbly efficient Firefly makes the 12th. SS impossible to counter if played properly.

Yes, the Panthers are really good in scrub battles. But when you play non clown games against players capable of tactics they are not as godly as you think.

The Beute Firefly is 200 points in Phase A and doesn't have HE shells. It is only worth it in high income/starting point games and 2v2-4v4 on smaller versions of the map than intended.

also try point du hoc sometime. its nothing but a hedgerow clusterfug.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

You don't have a high enough income to do anything resembling spamming the Panther until the very end of the game, by which point big deal you've already won or lost.

And the 12. SS-Panzer is so absolutely abysmal in Phase A and meh in Phase B that it really needs that Phase C boost.

It has significantly higher income than 3rd AD during the first 20 minutes of the game, you can easily save up those extra poitns to spend during phase C, since the only tank you need for phases A and B is the Beute Firefly. I find playing 12. SS too easy to be any fun, you just micro the Firefly and the fire support cromwell to win the opening engagement and then turtle down at 51% of the map and wait for phase C so your panther spam can end the match. 3rd AD seriously needs a price nerf on the shermans or an income increase during earlier phases to become viable, as of now you can't even buy a sherman per tick in phase C.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

Yes, the Panthers are really good in scrub battles. But when you play non clown games against players capable of tactics they are not as godly as you think.

The Beute Firefly is 200 points in Phase A and doesn't have HE shells. It is only worth it in high income/starting point games and 2v2-4v4 on smaller versions of the map than intended.

also try point du hoc sometime. its nothing but a hedgerow clusterfug.

All of these games were on standard settings with the map size appropriate to the number of players, a single firefly will create an exclusion zone of 1200m around it during the opening, it is most definitely worth it. The only actual threat to a firefly comes in the form of AT guns, which you can effortlessly destroy with a cheap mortar carrier with nearly 100% effectiveness. I have played du hoc several times and the firefly is just as good as long as you're not brain dead.

 

[IS-2]

All of these games were on standard settings with the map size appropriate to the number of players, a single firefly will create an exclusion zone of 1200m around it during the opening, it is most definitely worth it. The only actual threat to a firefly comes in the form of AT guns, which you can effortlessly destroy with a cheap mortar carrier with nearly 100% effectiveness. I have played du hoc several times and the firefly is just as good as long as you're not brain dead.

If you are using a Firefly in your opening thats 200 points into a single tank that is only really effective against vehicles. It is completely cost ineffective to use in an opener unless you are fighting over a really open area, like on the flanks of callombelles 2v2. I don't have much to say since most of this discussion is theory crafting but I personally don't find much use for this unit because of the cost.