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RSW2002

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not really... well it depends. if I remember correctly there were 3 or 4 TD battalions attached at various times, 2 came in at the end of june, and one of those was around for about a month...and then later another was added around the time of the BotB... I can't remember if a 4th was added in the beginning of 45.

The 643rd, the 703rd and the 803rd Tank Destroyer battalions. IIRC, the 643rd was with them briefly in late December, the 803rd for about a week at the end of June and the 703rd was with them from June to December and again from January until May 9th.

The range of 1200m would give the 3rd Armored a lot less trouble against all those Panthers and whatever the other German armored divisions are going to throw at it imo. It would allow harassment of German armor without fear of getting taken out by artillery like a static AT gun thanks to the M10's excellent mobility..
 

Edraii

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You all know what the problem is here? Forget the Shermans and embrace the Stuart I say! For it be thee mightiest of potato slayer.
5a778d2b35.JPG

(Disclaimer: This image is for humor and proves nothing except that any tank can kill poorly used units)

Okay, on a more serious note I've had no significant issue fighting the 12th with the 3rd. Panthers are tough to crack from the front for sure but in my opinion you have the early game advantage. Combined fire from your halftrack and infantry can work wonders and while the firefly and cromwell can be a hassle to deal with, denying them targets is not to difficult, there is usually bocage to sneak up on them with and stuarts can take them out just fine given the opportunity.

Unlike the 91st Luftlande the Stuarts are actually good tanks and will last trough the game if you handle them well, up close they can take out panzer IV's with relative ease and penetrate the side of a panther from relatively long distances. You also have good phase A direct howitzer option in the way of M8 Scott, they're not quite AVRE's but they will wreck exposed anti-tank guns and teenage soldiers all the same. If you really do need to tank panther shots head, well, for 2/3'rs of a panthers price you can Mr.Jumbo with his magical arc shield, while he can't kill the panthers he can stop them from advancing, this is good enough.

Nothing of what I just said about Stuarts applies to those french "light" tanks the luftlande has, oh god how I hate those pieces of garbage that nobody in their right mind would waste points or slots on.

It is true that they can't fight Panthers (and likely other cats) in open country, but guess what? That is kitty country and it is indeed the one strength of the kitties and what the Panthers were designed to do, you are not supposed to win that fight as the allies, at least not with a positive balance at the end of it otherwise you might as well up and make the panthers obsolete. It's fine if the kitties have that one advantage, the 3rd have several other strengths.

From strongest to weakest, I'd currently rate the divisions as Scots > 3rd/12th > Luftlande, with the caveat of the luftlande being the most fun to play.
 
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Radioshow

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Command M5A1's are deadly. Use 3 in a 10v10(sword conq) to triple team a FF, killed it losing one, there was a whole column plus remaining AT guns as well.
I proceeded to LOL them around, getting another FF and 2 Panther D's(plus everything else . Those are rare and fulfilling moments tho. I do have a couple good replays I could always throw up of good opening with Stuarts and use after. It all depends on so many factors tho. The main thing is they hit, have command and are decent enough to be a cheap jack of all trades that cleans up in A/early B
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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Kill lists mean little. It just means you're fighting someone who's not as good as you. (As evidenced by foolishly pulling PIVH, instead of literally anything else.)

You also have good phase A direct howitzer option in the way of M8 Scott, they're not quite AVRE's but they will wreck exposed anti-tank guns and teenage soldiers all the same.
The scotts terrible. Why ever take it over a stuart? Every other support gun in the game shits on it. It is bad at its job. You are better off with 80 points of halftracks for attacking atg.

The Beute Cromwell is 2x as good as it for 20 more points and also phase A.

edit: Beute Cromwell is MORE than twice as good. It's twice as accurate, 50% more he, 1200m range, better armor, great mobility...
 

Edraii

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Kill lists mean little. It just means you're fighting someone who's not as good as you. (As evidenced by foolishly pulling PIVH, instead of literally anything else.)
You know, if you'd read the text below the image you might see how unnecessary that comment is, I'm just saying.

I will however concur in that the PIVH/J is currently a potato tier pick.

The scotts terrible. Why ever take it over a stuart? Every other support gun in the game shits on it. It is bad at its job. You are better off with 80 points of halftracks for attacking atg.

As for the Scott, I think you give it to little credit. The main gun has a splash area of 30, meaning even when it misses it is liable to cause damage and add a lot more stress, It also comes with a 50. equipped and those can do quite a bit of damage currently and can add to the AA coverage(M5's only have 30.'s). They're also 10 points less, it's not much but that can add up.

Edit: It could be fair to say that the M5 is still the better pick but that doesn't make the Scott bad, I'd rather say that the Stuart is just that good. Even putting the main gun aside getting 3x 30.'s on a fast armored platform (by phase A standards) in phase A makes it ridiculously good at wiping out infantry.
 
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Edraii

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That it does, a shame they never actually went forward with the long gun on it. I mean, the hellcat was a much better idea but it sure looked cool.

Edit: Well, not sure if cool is the right word... Adorable maybe? :p
Left.jpg
 

usnstarkey

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It's these kinds of insane overexaggerations that expose either a lack of credibility or a lack of ability. It's not actually that hard.

Except that it isnt and exaggeration.

If one side has to use considerably more resources to effect an attack, then it is at a disadvantage. Simple as that.

The 3AD has to play like and orchestra to make things happen if the other player is even half competent. If the German decides to play at the same level, you lose. Period. End of Story.

You simply cannot make a rational argument that a deck that is at an objective mathematical disadvantage can somehow pull even if the other player is playing at the same level.
 
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CyberianK

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I will however concur in that the PIVH/J is currently a potato tier pick.
What do you mean by that? I like a cheap 130 point times 5 tank option with HE, AP 14 and 3 MGs I think they are fine. Am I a noob for picking them? I actually dropped my Firefly for them in one of my decks because I found it standing around too much in most games. In that deck I have 2 slots of Pz4, Befehlspanzer and the rest Panthers. I am not saying it is amazing it should not be for 130 and without vet but it saved my ass multiples times when I needed a tank somewhere to defend or exploit or flank together with a Panther or actually protect its flank or protect it while its falling back from artillery.

On topic someone in ingame chat the other day posted they will nerf the Jumbo. Is that confirmed or BS? I think it is needed for a way to fight the 12th SS sure it could get a slight points increase I would be fine with that but that's it.
 
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Sharkey Ward

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What do you mean by that? I like a cheap 130 point times 5 tank option with HE, AP 14 and 3 MGs I think they are fine. Am I a noob for picking them? I actually dropped my Firefly for them in one of my decks because I found it standing around too much in most games. In that deck I have 2 slots of Pz4, Befehlspanzer and the rest Panthers. I am not saying it is amazing it should not be for 130 and without vet but it saved my ass multiples times when I needed a tank somewhere to defend or exploit or flank together with a Panther or actually protect its flank or protect it while its falling back from artillery.

On topic someone in ingame chat the other day posted they will nerf the Jumbo. Is that confirmed or BS? I think it is needed for a way to fight the 12th SS sure it could get a slight points increase I would be fine with that but that's it.

Yes, Panzer IVs are bad tanks not even worth the slot they occupy. Your deck should be nothing but panthers, the Firefly and the command PZ IV to buff the panther D in phase B.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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The p4j is okay but there's basically no reason to pick a p4h.

The problem with the p4 series is that it is competing on about even terms with allied armor. Why bother when a Panther can dominate it? For infantry support you have lots of good halftracks/beute cromwell
 

Grosnours

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Beyond any problem of material, when you compare it to other the other current divisions the 3rd AD lacks a lot in the experience department. Or if you prefer a serious lack of stars overall. Looking at the scot deck is almost blinding, the american division looks like a ragtag collection of greenhorns.
While it's not a design issue in itself, it's not really compensated by other strengths. In particular the air tab looks extremely lacking compared to the scot one on the experience front.
 

Zinegata

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I've been playing 3AD almost exclusively since getting the game - but on the other hand I would not consider myself to be a terribly good player (for the most part I can at least *hold* my section of the frontline and give some support to those in my flanks) - so take these notes with some grain of salt.

My general sense of the game is that the maps inherently favor infantry-centric battlegroups. And I need to be specific here - I don't mean that 91 Luftlande or any particular Division is going to be OP because it has theoretically a lot of infantry. Rather, what I mean is that a deck that is built with infantry at its core - with all the other elements (e.g. airplanes, tanks, etc) being designed to support this infantry core - tends to be more successful than say a deck full of Panthers or bombers.

And the reason for this is that tanks and other toys tend to have pretty low staying power because of the terrain; especially when they are attacking. Tanks will tend to get "channeled" into fire traps where a few towed ATGs can pick them off (or infantry can ambush them) while airpower needs to run a gauntlet of unspotted anti-air to deliver their bombs and then survive interceptors that chase after them.

Infantry, by contrast, may lose bodies quickly to enemy fire and get pinned down. However, getting them to retreat often also saves most of the remaining squad - as the infantry can quickly get behind cover so long as you're quick with pressing "R" as soon as they get pinned. This means that an infantry squad can be used multiple times to probe/attack/defend over the course of a single engagement - which is great value for a 10-20 point unit compared to having a 100+ point tank blown up by an ATG or Panzerfaust.

When decks are run without the infantry core in mind - such as a 12th SS player who deploys lots of Panthers and few Panzergrenadiers - they very quickly run into trouble. I've already encountered several of them putting their Panthers in open fields where their flank was resting on a hedegrow occupied by my infantry (left unmolested because they weren't calling in more infantry themselves) - which allowed me to bring up 76mm guns to the "flanking" hedgegrow and cause havoc for the tanks. Similarly, there are Luftlande players who seemingly forget their infantry entirely after Phase A and go all-air, which allows my own infantry to start taking back ground with just a few support units even against vaunted Fallshirmjaegers dug-in towns.

Hence, in the specific case of 3AD, the core of the battlegroup should not be its tanks but rather its armored infantry. While I'm still not consistently winning I've had a lot more success once I started paying more attention to my infantry (and their halftracks, which is half of the cost!) and how to support them.

The thing is, I'm somewhat increasingly tempted to run fewer and fewer tanks in the deck - which is contrary to the popular history conception of an "armored division" (which I would argue it itself a historically flawed argument - most Armored Divisions were in fact mostly mechanized Divisions by 1944 - but I digress). Instead I tend to pick stuff that would be better at supporting infantry for very specific tasks.

For instance, I tend to buy artillery early and keep them well supplied - because I find that a single mortar tends to kill a lot of fixed ATGs and AA guns; while the M7 is very good at wrecking infantry pushes or even suppressing tanks. In one particularly memorable battle, where ten German players fought three Allies (we had seven quitters on my team -_-), a single Armored Infantry squad and an M7 basically stopped like twenty Ersatztruppen before they started calling in an endless wave of air power on the position. For heavy AT work I tend to deploy the 76mm guns (especially the two star one) and don't terribly miss having no Shermans or M10s. Even when I'm assaulting a town I tend to prefer the Sherman 105 rather than the regular Sherman; and even when given the choice between a Sherman and an M5 Stuart I tend to go with the latter because of the point savings.

(And yes, I do of course deploy lots of anti-air and aircraft. Because Goddamit Luftlande players stop sending in wave after wave of aircraft!)

In short, while I feel that the 3AD deck is effective, and I feel that the eventual force mix isn't too far off from real history, it feels "off" for people who subscribe to pop-history documentaries and expect Sherman spam.

Now, I can't really say *how* to fix this, but my first instinct would be that it would require a radical change in pricing methodology and playstyle per Division. For instance I feel that 3rd Armored should have greatly reduced prices for the Shermans - even if this leads to the heresy of the Sherman having similar stats compared to the Panzer IV yet is much cheaper (or have its Shermans cheaper compared to other Allied units). The basic idea behind this change is that - unlike most other Divisions - 3AD is one that has tanks which are cheap enough to be risked constantly; whereas infantry is a more limited resource that will tend to be parceled out to support the tanks instead of the other way around.

That said, as I noted - much of the character of the game revolves around the terrain - so making Shermans so cheap you'd buy them over infantry may not be the solution. But I think it's this sort of pretty radical balance mindset that's required to get 3AD where people "expect" it to be as an "Armored" Division; and quite frankly I foresee even more balance whining under that kind of model where you'll have players going "3AD gets 50 point Shermans but Scots pay 150 for their Shermans. 3AD OP!".
 
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mitchverr

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That it does, a shame they never actually went forward with the long gun on it. I mean, the hellcat was a much better idea but it sure looked cool.

Edit: Well, not sure if cool is the right word... Adorable maybe? :p
Left.jpg


It is indeed adorable tank, I wuv my babycat in war thunder ^^ where it pretty much trolls panthers still lol.

As for the Scott being meh, personally I like the idea of these lil guys, but perhaps the "small howitzer" baby tanks could get a rof buff that makes them a bit more useful for their intended role, given lower HE, no AP etc.
 

holoween

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Yes, Panzer IVs are bad tanks not even worth the slot they occupy. Your deck should be nothing but panthers, the Firefly and the command PZ IV to buff the panther D in phase B.

the pz4 is great. its cheap and especially the command ones are great for fighting in broken up terrain. they will get the first shot on a sherman almost every time and have a good chance at knocking them out.
 

Had a dad

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well the doctrinal approach of the TD for the US was to be used defensively only and held in reserve waiting to ambush armored thrusts. Not sure if that works well in the conversation
The 643rd, the 703rd and the 803rd Tank Destroyer battalions. IIRC, the 643rd was with them briefly in late December, the 803rd for about a week at the end of June and the 703rd was with them from June to December and again from January until May 9th.
I found it later and saw the 703rd was with them 2x which is why I was thinking maybe 4
 

RSW2002

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well the doctrinal approach of the TD for the US was to be used defensively only and held in reserve waiting to ambush armored thrusts. Not sure if that works well in the conversation

I found it later and saw the 703rd was with them 2x which is why I was thinking maybe 4

Then they'd make a good Phase C unit in my book, when the Panthers really start rolling in numbers.

Thought so ;)

Anyway, given the rather large amount of time they spent with the 3rd Armored, I'm not sure about the "they were just an attachment/not organic to the Division" argument mentioned earlier really holding any water.

And given the amount of pressure and lobbying the TD advocates applied behind the scenes in the US Army at the time, even to the detriment of developing heavy tanks, it really feels weird to me that the US itself doesn't get a single M10 in the game, even though they actually had them with them.
 
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