3rd Armored Division balance thread

[IS-2]

Interesting ,I was under the impression that the American 76mm was at least comparable to the 17 pounder (which in game has more penetration in game)

FH refers to performance against face hardened armour and this is on USN pen standard so 50% chance of full penetration on the indicated value.

17pdr:

76:

Kwk40:

why does the jagdpanzer IV have 12 AP XD

L46 is the towed PaK 40. L/48 is used on pz.iv G and stug III G onwards. The 17 pdr was not liked by the US when they tested it against their 76 for a bunch of reasons... I wouldn't really call their pen comparable tho

 

[faxx2]

interesting I never realized that I assumed that they had comparable capabilities (as in, in the same ballpark). You learn something every day.

 

[usnstarkey]

Sherman 75 should be about 125 points and accuracy buffed for all tanks. 1st shot accuracy at 1km should be about 50%, follow up shots 80% and climbing.

 

[Dongs Galore]

3AD is better than it was in closed beta, I think because AT guns and Infantry die less quickly and so mitigate their armor disadvantages. They're still not where they need to be though.

In my experience right now 3AD is, counterintuitively, very strong in phase A. With aggressive handling a force of 3-4 led Stuarts can ruin either of the two German divisions at the start, including the Firefly if they get lucky. The armored infantry struggle in towns without squad mgs but they can also dominate phase A hedgerows with their bazookas and halftrack support until arty and bombers start proliferating.

The problem is with only 65 income in Phase A the 3AD quite rapidly falls behind the other divisions. If the Stuarts had a good start this may not be a serious problem, since the enemy will be rebuilding, but if 3AD had even a couple bad rolls then they will struggle to replace their losses, especially if the enemy can still put pressure on them.

The upshot is that often 3AD lags behind in Phase B and will not have the resources to build up their tank force while also defending their front line. They should be able to pull together enough M4s to push forward in B, but if they aren't already dominating they will typically not reach that mass before phase C starts and they start facing too many 88s.

They aren't unplayable but they would be much more competitive with a phase B income buff.

 

[Dongs Galore]

The 17pdr is the same caliber (76.2mm) but has a longer barrel and heftier ammo(as well as the powerful APDS ammunition, which was deadly but inaccurate past 600m)

On the topic of shells, isn't the 75mm's HE value too low? 4 is the same as the 76mm even though the 75's defining characteristic was its unreasonably strong HE.

 

[usnstarkey]

I think that is precisely the problem. The Allied Armored divisions would make more sense thematically if they were ultimately more powerful than the German divs in the long run, certainly in material.

Every game I have won as the 3AD has come from winning early and holding off the Panther spam at the end.

 

[faxx2]

Yer, Dongs Galora (lol), the fact that both german Divisions get an 88mm, means that in Phase C when you start getting the points, any armored push is instantly nutered--forcing you to go all out to bomb or arti the 88mm (and other tactics), which prevents said armored push.

Don't get me wrong I like the counter v counter gameplay, but when I play I usually end up only playing the Scots inf as they at least have decent AT and heavy (infantry) tanks, because the 3AD seems to be too much of a Liability.

 

[usnstarkey]

Yeah I think it certainly needs changed. The income rates would seem to indicate that the original intent was to have the 3AD be very powerful late game, and its not.

 

[Dongs Galore]

Bombing 88mm guns is also a good joke, seeing as a single 88 flak burst will typically cause P-47 and Typhoon pilots to shit themselves and run away.

The P-47's price is also relevant to the 3AD's effectiveness - why is it 10 points more expensive than the Hs129b, which can come in phase A and can actually kill medium tanks reliably? I know the Armor Division isn't supposed to have as many slots for aircraft as other divisions, but it could really use a larger number of bombers or strike planes to overcome German AAA nets. (or just nerf the 88's suppression against aircraft - I don't think it was really that effective against fast low-flying targets)

 

[Graphic]

The P-47's price is also relevant to the 3AD's effectiveness - why is it 10 points more expensive than the Hs129b

Probably because it's a fighter too.

 

[usnstarkey]

Another good question is why two 1000lbs GP bombs has orders of magnitude less HE power than rockets........

And on top of that, nether is good at killing tanks.

 

[mitchverr]

Another good question is why two 1000lbs GP bombs has orders of magnitude less HE power than rockets........

And on top of that, nether is good at killing tanks.

AoE seems to have a bigger effect on how good HE is in this game.

Rockets seem okay if you hit side/weak low end armour.

 

[Slahinki]

Probably because it's a fighter too.

And the Duck is slow as balls. Anything airborne can kill that poor beautiful bird.

 

[faxx2]

Yer air power seems a little funny, I don't think I've managed to kill a german phase B tank yet with airpower, which is a little odd as the British RP-3 (the one with 60lb of explosive) was supposed to be able to take out a Tiger.

It would be nice to see more single role ground attack aircraft like the duck, maybe a Mosquito or B-26, Would, love to see the Mosquito with the 57mm or the B-26 with the 75mm. I do love ground pound aircraft

 

[Severvus_septim]

The problem here is that certain game mechanics are complementing each other in making the Panther more OP than it should be.


The first problem is the cost of the Sherman compared to the Panther. Very Excessive imo.

The second issue is tank accuracy, which there is already another thread about. The lack of tank accuracy hurts the Sherman more than it hurts the Panther. To kill a Panther you have to take time getting around it etc. But when it takes so long to get a hit, the Panther almost always gets a chance to turn into the attack and win. Even when you use a double flank, the poor accuracy often gives Panthers time to engage one attack and then the other in succession.

Late game it is simply impossible to defeat any significant mass of Panthers vs a semi-intelligent opponent.

Actually Panther G (at least early, that, imo, is in game) really overwhelm almost all mods. of Sherman, so accuracy is not "balance" problem, but it is problem of facts and realism =) With only Shermans, even that nice small Jumbos you will never be able to get Panther G in open combat (if Panther see your tanks BEFORE they shoot in it)... so try to ambush Panthers, there is no alternate way.
Shermans really may be a bit more expencive (i have no idea about- haven`t played 3rd armor yet), but it`s cost even if it will be reduced will do nothing with quality superiority of Panthers (I will not even think about Tigers or Tigers II). Actually... if you want to do something to lategame German armor you need to focus on it all you can- tanks, AT-infantry, AT-guns and some air support.
I think, that there should be some kind of "ambush" mechanics in game, to give weaker units, as Shermans or Churchilles some chance to make damage to "hard" units as late-game German armor.

 

[Slahinki]

Yer air power seems a little funny, I don't think I've managed to kill a german phase B tank yet with airpower, which is a little odd as the British RP-3 (the one with 60lb of explosive) was supposed to be able to take out a Tiger.

It would be nice to see more single role ground attack aircraft like the duck, maybe a Mosquito or B-26, Would, love to see the Mosquito with the 57mm or the B-26 with the 75mm. I do love ground pound aircraft

The problem with the RP-3 (and any other WW2 era air-to-ground rocket, really) is that they had incredibly horrid hit rates against armoured targets. Soft targets that don't need direct hits might die from misses, armoured targets won't. Though it probably would scare the crew shitless.

The Tsetse Mosquito with the 57mm and the B-25G and H Mitchells with the 75mm were only ever used against U-boats AFAIK.

 

[KattiValk]

I seriously feel like the M8 is simply far too inaccurate in its current state. As a wheeled recon vehicle, it should excel at hunter killer and back rage action, except it couldn't hit a barn if it was inside it. The M8 could be a strong aspect of the Phase A and C potential of the 3AD deck, but it simply can't kill anything with how often it misses.

A big Phase B income buff would be really nice for the 3AD.

Yer air power seems a little funny, I don't think I've managed to kill a german phase B tank yet with airpower, which is a little odd as the British RP-3 (the one with 60lb of explosive) was supposed to be able to take out a Tiger.

Oh trust me, it's possible. The feeling when the enemy coordinated 6 rocket planes directly on your Panther D is horrifying, to say the least.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

Bombing 88mm guns is also a good joke, seeing as a single 88 flak burst will typically cause P-47 and Typhoon pilots to shit themselves and run away.

The P-47's price is also relevant to the 3AD's effectiveness - why is it 10 points more expensive than the Hs129b, which can come in phase A and can actually kill medium tanks reliably? I know the Armor Division isn't supposed to have as many slots for aircraft as other divisions, but it could really use a larger number of bombers or strike planes to overcome German AAA nets. (or just nerf the 88's suppression against aircraft - I don't think it was really that effective against fast low-flying targets)

88s could use a significant increase in rate of fire, since they could be reloaded incredibly quickly (under 3 seconds between shots as seen here: http://puu.sh/vcZiy/9e4b80909c.webm) but a significantly reduced suppression effect or accuracy against planes.

 

[IS-2]

88s could use a significant increase in rate of fire, since they could be reloaded incredibly quickly (under 3 seconds between shots as seen here: http://puu.sh/vcZiy/9e4b80909c.webm) but a significantly reduced suppression effect or accuracy against planes.

that is unaimed RoF... it could go to 9 or 10 RPM tops aimed. not when in the tanks though. If this game modelled RoF off of unaimed fire Panthers and shermans could do 20 RPM...

 

[Slahinki]

88s could use a significant increase in rate of fire, since they could be reloaded incredibly quickly (under 3 seconds between shots as seen here: http://puu.sh/vcZiy/9e4b80909c.webm) but a significantly reduced suppression effect or accuracy against planes.

If they ever decide to let the FlaK 41 do indirect fire then that rate of fire would be nice.