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mudcrabmerchant

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+1 to reducing the doomstacks. It'd be better to represent their invincibility with special generals and tactics (giving a special attrition reducing, but not eliminating, cultural general trait would be great) rather than inelegant, immersion-breaking ridiculous numerical advantage and anti-attrition cheating.
 

Deaghaidh

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Could they, when the people actually living in the land numbered significantly less than the armies in question?
You can't tell me there were 100,000 people living in Cumanian provinces.

They didn't stay put, they thundered through quickly. They might leave not a blade of grass growing in their wake.

Generally speaking though they didn't travel in a single, solid mass for just this reason. But The AI is likely not up to the task of coordinating 3 armies of 35,000 to work in concert like the historical mongols did.

Historic accounts of Mongol conquests massively overestimate their numbers, because the speed their armies moved at were incomprehensible. The idea that the same army of 35,000 could be at point A for a battle one day, then be spotted again at point B before appearing again to attack point C was ludicrous to their opponants, who assumed they must be facing three seperate armies. Mongols encouraged the inflated notion of their numbers, doing things like putting straw soldiers on their spare mounts so from a distance they looked to have two to three times as many men as they did. Contemporary consensus seems to be that rather than arriving in overwhelming numbers, the Mongols were actually usually outnumbered in major battles.
 

markmid

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Please leave the mongols scary and not nerf ridden, they can already be kicked out before they begin by an organised russian AI king as it is, I don't need them any easier than they already are.

My suggestion would be an option in the game start page.

Mongol Easy AI, Medium AI (as is), Hard AI
 

Isaios

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It's not really nerfing that's under discussion though. Just changing what the challenge is. And the doomstack as is, seem to be a sub-optimal mechanism. I'd agee that the Hordes should be both terrifying and, well... horde-like.
 

Deaghaidh

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It's not really nerfing that's under discussion though. Just changing what the challenge is. And the doomstack as is, seem to be a sub-optimal mechanism. I'd agee that the Hordes should be both terrifying and, well... horde-like.

Ironically, the word "horde" invokes the idea of nigh-limitless numbers and senseless aggression. In reality, the source of the word was often outnumbered and tactically rather sophisticated (for the time).

The question is, can the AI manage a historically accurate horde in a way so as to remain a suitable threat? I rather suspect no, but it's a problem worth tackling.

From some more cursory research on the internet, it seems like mongols used a larger proportion of heavy cavalry than they are represented as in game. Wiki says a mongol force was 60% light cavalry, 40% lancers. Even assuming Wiki has their sources correct, that would probably be more of a guideline than an on-the-ground reality. A mongol Tumen might have a paper strength of 6000 horse archers and 4000 lancers, in reality that number would vary reflecting losses in the field and be augmented by forces from subject states. Presumably subject nomadic tribes would supply mostly horse archers and light cavalry. Infantry and seige contingents were deployed too, but could the AI handle the combination? I rather think that it would fall into the trap of consistently letting a slogging mass of infantry and archers negate their mobility advantage.

A cultural-specific boost to the hordes cavalry units, as well as special tactical choices reflecting their tactics, might be able to make them threatening even without doomstack numbers.
 

generalolaf

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The lack of attrition most likely represents the fact that Mongols (as long as they were in grassy enough area) could live from the land.
That's what supply limit is for... Perhaps Mongol cultured armies should get an increase to supply limit instead.
 

kingsword

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They are FINE. Don't touch them! It's the only combat challenge in the game. Don't play on the eastern borders if you don't feel up to the challenge.

AI wouldn't be able to get the historical lands without such numbers anyway, Everyone and their mother have 50-150k troops by 1250.
 

generalolaf

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I'd agree with you if the 'only combat challenge' followed the same rules as the player has to.

I don't think anyone is arguing for a reduction in the number of troops - it's the attrition that's the problem.
 

brxbrx

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They are FINE. Don't touch them! It's the only combat challenge in the game. Don't play on the eastern borders if you don't feel up to the challenge.

AI wouldn't be able to get the historical lands without such numbers anyway, Everyone and their mother have 50-150k troops by 1250.
Not everybody is a power gamer.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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I don't think anyone is arguing for a reduction in the number of troops - it's the attrition that's the problem.

I am, and so were several others. We want the troops reduced, the generals and Mongol-specific tactics and traits buffed, and their magical attrition immunity replaced with a reasonable resistance.
 

Kalderus

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Please leave the mongols scary and not nerf ridden, they can already be kicked out before they begin by an organised russian AI king as it is, I don't need them any easier than they already are.

My suggestion would be an option in the game start page.

Mongol Easy AI, Medium AI (as is), Hard AI

Are you playing on 1.03 or are you just on crack? I've never seen or heard of any AI king or otherwise "kick out" or let alone make a dent in the 1.08 mongols. In fact, most games the mongols reach the border of the HRE and even occasionally further. This might not be a problem for you, but some of us actually want to have a fighting chance on the eastern side of the map, not just have a scripted "oops you're dead" button get pushed every time the mid 1200's roll in.
 

generalolaf

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I am, and so were several others. We want the troops reduced, the generals and Mongol-specific tactics and traits buffed, and their magical attrition immunity replaced with a reasonable resistance.

Yep (whoops!), and since I wrote that I've changed my mind. First hand experience on the east side of the map spoke for itself.
 

unmerged(527492)

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Not everybody is a power gamer.

Holy THIS, Batman. Some of us just want to roleplay sometimes. Seeing these elements in the game who can only be stopped by becoming the Emperor of half of Europe is annoying as Hell. When people defend the current Mongols, or the 1066 start Fatimids, they're basically arguing that they're ok because they can be stopped if you're a power gamer. Some of us don't want to be power gamers every campaign we play.
 

agustinalarcon

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Please leave the mongols scary and not nerf ridden, they can already be kicked out before they begin by an organised russian AI king as it is, I don't need them any easier than they already are.
Well in my game there was a very strong Russia, and it was wiped out by the Golden Horde as if nothing. Perhaps for you they are easy, but I see no way in which a 165k stack with no attrition is easy to beat. But if you wish, you can share your tactics with me, I would be very happy to learn how to defeat them, having tried three different ways, none of which was succesful in the end.
 

agustinalarcon

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Holy THIS, Batman. Some of us just want to roleplay sometimes. Seeing these elements in the game who can only be stopped by becoming the Emperor of half of Europe is annoying as Hell. When people defend the current Mongols, or the 1066 start Fatimids, they're basically arguing that they're ok because they can be stopped if you're a power gamer. Some of us don't want to be power gamers every campaign we play.

Long live Roleplay ! :)
 

Isaios

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Holy THIS, Batman. Some of us just want to roleplay sometimes. Seeing these elements in the game who can only be stopped by becoming the Emperor of half of Europe is annoying as Hell. When people defend the current Mongols, or the 1066 start Fatimids, they're basically arguing that they're ok because they can be stopped if you're a power gamer. Some of us don't want to be power gamers every campaign we play.

Utterly in agreement. But there's a way to do both! Just play as Mali. And refrain from having Aztects come knocking >_> Weeeee for Mali?
 

unmerged(462833)

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Number of armies isn't a problem, problem is, thay Mongols are creating giant stack. There should be possibility to face them. For now it is impossible to win a battle and hold invasion for at least few years (like battle of Samara Bend - 1223 when Mongols failed against Volga Bolgaria). Mongols running with giant stack like even 60.000 are unbeatable - maybe except provinces near see when it is easier to move armies with less atrition...
 

smeggy

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I only dont see the point here of reducing a 160k stack to a historical 5-10k one, that is functional the same. Paradox could fix this by letting things the way they are, and just representing the stack number on mongols as it is, devided by 20. Problem fixed!

Well, not really, since after this is implemented horde of ppl come over to the forums and complain they have had their 100k elite pwnage army crumbled back to prehistory by only a 8k stack!!