3 most powerful nations in the game (According to me)

[stnikolauswagne]

Well, I can get all of Muscowy+missions (including vassalizing Novgorod)

Make myself HRE, and vassalize everything in the HRE, vassalize all of France, all other small monarchies outside France and HRE (Cyprus, Crete, Corfu, Naxos Sicily, Navarre etc)
Also whatever I can get in between Muscowy and the HRE. (Obviously I would get Hungary and Croatia and whatever else to border him)

And then I would ally myself to all my vassals, and perhaps what other strong catholic nations there are. Build a great army...and just deeeeeeclare war.

And yeah, all that before 1450 at least.


And I would surely like to see the Ottoman-player who have gobbled up all of mamluks, timurids, golden horde *aaand* conquered all those western provinces I mentioned before 1450.

EDIT: Might be possible to do that as Ottomans...I've never tried.

Nothing you mentioned is in anyway something that muscowy is especially good at, for diplomacy there is Austria (catholic, +3 Diplomatic skill), for war there is Castille (starts strong), Ottomans (start even stronger and have an awesome cb against europe), England/France (once you eliminate the other you have practically one the game), Burgundy (awesome sliders) etc.
Muscovys strenghts lie in their masses of troops, the possibility to just escape europe eastward, the low maximal warexhaustion and other smaller things, none of which you especially use, if you want a country that is protected nicely you should take England, since muscowy's "protection" you always advertise is basically a gigantic unstoppable mass of nomads, at least very early in the game....

 

[Ryuujin95]

Well, I can get all of Muscowy+missions (including vassalizing Novgorod)

Make myself HRE, and vassalize everything in the HRE, vassalize all of France, all other small monarchies outside France and HRE (Cyprus, Crete, Corfu, Naxos Sicily, Navarre etc)
Also whatever I can get in between Muscowy and the HRE. (Obviously I would get Hungary and Croatia and whatever else to border him)

And then I would ally myself to all my vassals, and perhaps what other strong catholic nations there are. Build a great army...and just deeeeeeclare war.

And yeah, all that before 1450 at least.


And I would surely like to see the Ottoman-player who have gobbled up all of mamluks, timurids, golden horde *aaand* conquered all those western provinces I mentioned before 1450.

EDIT: Might be possible to do that as Ottomans...I've never tried.

All that by 1450 with no saving and reloading, and a human Ottoman player around to muck up your plans? Yeah right. Clearly your plan is expand your SoI to the point where you can diplo vassalize minors with ease, but that's easily countered by watching your relations + holy war. Becoming HRE wouldn't be so easy if I can vassalize electors too. And you wouldn't be able to win a direct confrontation without the HRE throne (and perhaps even with it), which would sink your prestige and legitimacy. And since you gave 1450 as a date, here's an actual screenshot of an Ottoman game instead of empty boasting:

And I was horribly inefficient with my infamy in that one, annexing a few nations without the Holy War CB.

 

[unmerged(204522)]

How are the Ottomans strong? In an even weaker position than Burgundy. Ottomans usually get 2-3 hordes on it, then the catholics etc etc. Sure a strong nation, but not top 3.

Same with Burgundy, France always invades.

Teutodrager: I never said Castille was weak, I just said other nations were stronger.

AI france invading a player-controlled burgundy, dont make me laugh. burgundy-france-HRE has the chance to inherit the HRE and most of france with cores for zero infamy. my other 2 choices would be castille and england.

 

[sprites]

my top 3 would be :

1- England
2- France
3- Austria
4- GH , they can be incredibly powerful , but are a micromanagement hell ...

Burgundy would come about 6-7th place , but if you are playing SP , you can success with any medium power if you don't have horrible luck in the beginning ...

 

[Chronicler]

To whoever said it: Ofc I have enough infamy.

I take vassals with cleansing of heresy CB, and then release them. No infamy increase.
Also most vassals would be gained by offer vassalization....no infamy increase there either.

It's very possible to do before 1450 (and I know since I have done it)


How would the Ottomans much up my game? They don't even see me or my western neighbour on the map lol, they can't get military access through Golden Horde for example.
And I would do the same to muck up his game.


And to you who said other nations were better:

It's Muscowys promise that is better than the others, sure, I could attack the HRE electors as Castille, but I would have to defend my main at the same time, as Muscowy I don't have to defend my main and fight a war on 2 fronts.

 

[Chronicler]

AI france invading a player-controlled burgundy, dont make me laugh. burgundy-france-HRE has the chance to inherit the HRE and most of france with cores for zero infamy. my other 2 choices would be castille and england.

Perhaps at the same time Burgundy is fighting England and Austria who seized the opportunity?

 

[unmerged(204522)]

My dad could beat up your dad?

my mum could beat up his dad lol.

 

[Nostalgium]

It's very possible to do before 1450 (and I know since I have done it)

I will not believe you before I see a screenshot - or several - which shows that it's an acheivement-legit game.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

You start to make me sad.... from whom would I have to defend as castille? It's not like bohemia could reach me as castille, the ironic thing is that as Muscowy you could theoretically have very bad luck and wind up fighting bohemia inside the empire, as castille I could strike 4 Electors from france and be home in spain before bohemia would know what hit them.....
And no, burgundy won't have any problems with Austria, England, France declaring war on them.... As a real progamer (which you seem to be) you should know that there are no wars you can't win once you reached a certain stage of development, for burgundy this is finishing their missions and becomming HRE (which can very well be by the first election)
Also you are aware that Cleansing of Heresy (which you won't get until around 1410 or so[unless my memory fools me] does not work with annexiations, so you will at least get 2 infamy per vassal you release? [could be totally wrong here, if so, sorry]

 

[Ryuujin95]

Perhaps at the same time Burgundy is fighting England and Austria who seized the opportunity?

War against England means occupying Calais, then beating down their troops as they land. Should occupy one army at best. If Austria isn't the HRE, they'll probably fail to get military access from Switzerland. Nothing to worry about there.

 

[Ryuujin95]

Also you are aware that Cleansing of Heresy (which you won't get until around 1410 or so[unless my memory fools me] does not work with annexiations, so you will at least get 2 infamy per vassal you release? [could be totally wrong here, if so, sorry]

You're correct that it doesn't work for annexing. He'd get vassals for free if he were to carve them out of a larger nation - Polotsk or Ukraine from Lithuania, for example - but would still pay 2 infamy / province for a 2+ province nation, and 6 infamy to annex/release an OPM.

 

[Chronicler]

You start to make me sad.... from whom would I have to defend as castille? It's not like bohemia could reach me as castille, the ironic thing is that as Muscowy you could theoretically have very bad luck and wind up fighting bohemia inside the empire, as castille I could strike 4 Electors from france and be home in spain before bohemia would know what hit them.....
And no, burgundy won't have any problems with Austria, England, France declaring war on them.... As a real progamer (which you seem to be) you should know that there are no wars you can't win once you reached a certain stage of development, for burgundy this is finishing their missions and becomming HRE (which can very well be by the first election)
Also you are aware that Cleansing of Heresy (which you won't get until around 1410 or so[unless my memory fools me] does not work with annexiations, so you will at least get 2 infamy per vassal you release? [could be totally wrong here, if so, sorry]

You would also get some serious infamy, and your own electors would probably prefer others over you as their choice for emperor.

As orthodox I'm the only candidate.

EDIT: Also you can't use cleansing of heresy to put all of them under you (except the monarchies offer vassalization (except the larger ones))

 

[Pewt]

To whoever said it: Ofc I have enough infamy.

I take vassals with cleansing of heresy CB, and then release them. No infamy increase.

Cleansing of Heresy doesn't list Full Annexation as a war goal, so I'm left with even less doubt that you're just making this up as you go along (unless you were left with some bizarre game where every nation in the HRE got Claims on our Rivals at the start of the game and blobbed up, but somehow I doubt that).

 

[stnikolauswagne]

You would also get some serious infamy, and your own electors would probably prefer others over you as their choice for emperor.

As orthodox I'm the only candidate.

You are not the only candidate, there are still some other principialities+byzantium+eventual electoral monarchies you converted in the HRE... Hey, interesting thought, let's go through the electors:
4 Monarchies and 3 Bishophorics, meaning you would have to at least vassalize one Country to gain a secure position (do the math yourself you will understand, not enough time to type it all down). As castille I would pay 16 Infamy, thats true, but they would always vote for me and I'd never have to worry about emperorship again (unlike your case where bohemia could demand religious unity from the converted, nonvassalized electors and convert them right back to catholicism. And YES, they would always vote for me, the math is simple: (+200 from relations, +250 from vassalage, +30 from alliance, -50 from not being inside the HRE, for a grand total of 420, the closest any rival can come without a gigantic sphere is 300 (200 relations + 100 big nation in HRE), prestige and legitimacy are excluded because they just don't matter enough in that case).

 

[Chronicler]

You are not the only candidate, there are still some other principialities+byzantium+eventual electoral monarchies you converted in the HRE... Hey, interesting thought, let's go through the electors:
4 Monarchies and 3 Bishophorics, meaning you would have to at least vassalize one Country to gain a secure position (do the math yourself you will understand, not enough time to type it all down). As castille I would pay 16 Infamy, thats true, but they would always vote for me and I'd never have to worry about emperorship again (unlike your case where bohemia could demand religious unity from the converted, nonvassalized electors and convert them right back to catholicism. And YES, they would always vote for me, the math is simple: (+200 from relations, +250 from vassalage, +30 from alliance, -50 from not being inside the HRE, for a grand total of 420, the closest any rival can come without a gigantic sphere is 300 (200 relations + 100 big nation in HRE), prestige and legitimacy are excluded because they just don't matter enough in that case).

Vassals aren't eligible for election.

That usually only leaves Byzantium....and they are nothing compared to Muscowy (Hasn't been in my games anyway)

EDIT: Also your infamy calculations are wrong

 

[stnikolauswagne]

Vassals aren't eligible for election.

That usually only leaves Byzantium....and they are nothing compared to Muscowy (Hasn't been in my games anyway)

Yeah, so you will pay at least some infamy, probably at least 8, maybe even the 16 I'd pay as castille.... Why don''t you just admit that you are wrong? Or at least post some screenshots.....

 

[Chronicler]

Cleansing of Heresy doesn't list Full Annexation as a war goal, so I'm left with even less doubt that you're just making this up as you go along (unless you were left with some bizarre game where every nation in the HRE got Claims on our Rivals at the start of the game and blobbed up, but somehow I doubt that).

Well, I have fully annexed.

Usually I don't need to do that much though (As I said with a high SOI everyone will accept a offer vassalization)

In the case of larger nations like Milan and Austria, I attack and then release places like Parma, Pisa, Siena, Tyrol, Styria.

 

[Chronicler]

Yeah, so you will pay at least some infamy, probably at least 8, maybe even the 16 I'd pay as castille.... Why don''t you just admit that you are wrong? Or at least post some screenshots.....

Dude, there are 4 electors you need to declare war on (but let's say they aren't allied, because they aren't always that)

You wouldn't have CBs on them, would leave you with +2 stability hit on each declaration, and also +2 infamy on each declaration, that's 24 infamy total.


EDIT: And I did better than that. I posted an entire thread with an early Muscowy save game (my first game trying this and made some mistakes, but did it so other people could try it out) Just need to find the thread and download the savegame.

EDIT2: And again, my infamy doesn't matter for me as orthodox, yours does on the other hand, since they will go for Bohemia/Austria whatever before you.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

Well, I have fully annexed.

Usually I don't need to do that much though (As I said with a high SOI everyone will accept a offer vassalization)

In the case of larger nations like Milan and Austria, I attack and then release places like Parma, Pisa, Siena, Tyrol, Styria.

Okay, which leads me to another question: WHYYYYYYY???? Honestly, Vassals are not that good, releasing opm vassals for the sake of it is kind of strange, since they are practically worthless in wars since they don't coordinate really good and get beaten up by every bigger enemy and push your ws down.....


And no, I will get some cb or war against them, I could just add them to my soi (I'll get a cb against them when they do something, won't I? Long time since I had a non-vassal in my sphere), guarantee everyone in their vincinity and offer alliances against countries they are at war against....

 

[The Blood Eagle]

That OE screenshot at 1450 made me nauseous. Too much micromanagement, perhaps I judge my favorite countries by how compact I can keep them a world leader.

Edit - and to all the haters, going over your infamy limit isn't the end of the world. Some crappy events that mostly revolve around rebels, and you barely have to pay attention to them anymore. If you can wage war on 15 countries at a time when you don't have a crusade or are past the limit I see no reason why a few years of being a scumbag is prohibitive.