3.8 is the Age of the Clerk

[theBigTurnip385]

Its 17 years into the game and my clerks produce 9.2 trade before empire trade modifiers.

All after I appoint the director of trade to my council.

Once i become cyborg my director of trade will add 0.6 trade per level to my clerks and he can go all the way to an effective level of 13 which equals 7.8 trade added to the clerk before modifiers.

7.8 + 7.5 gives the clerk a 15.3 trade yeah the clerk is now a thrifty merchant lol.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Specifically, it's the Age of other people's clerks.

The biggest beneficiary of Merchant Guilds remains the MegaCorp who can tax them as Prospectoriums for their energy and CG, and get 50% of the raw TV as energy from branch offices, and get 12% of the TV again as free trade agreement, while further taxing that 12% again against any other vassal-member of the trade federation.

 

[Nerisande]

Vassalizing a Megacorp as trade build also is nice synergy. The first branch office building is always +1 merchant one, so you get an extra merchant on each planet. Megacorp benefits a lot from your crazy trade value and you get your own share from subject taxes.

 

[theBigTurnip385]

Specifically, it's the Age of other people's clerks.

The biggest beneficiary of Merchant Guilds remains the MegaCorp who can tax them as Prospectoriums for their energy and CG, and get 50% of the raw TV as energy from branch offices, and get 12% of the TV again as free trade agreement, while further taxing that 12% again against any other vassal-member of the trade federation.

Agree however mechanist can strongly take advantage of merchant guilds to rush science and use their robots to pay for it.

in the case of a robot around year 17 with full modifiers it will be producing 16 trade value.

giving you 8 energy credits and 3.2cg and 3.2 unity.

At that point those robots will be feeding your science + providing unity allowing a complete focus on science + alloys

 

[DeanTheDull]

Agree however mechanist can strongly take advantage of merchant guilds to rush science and use their robots to pay for it.

in the case of a robot around year 17 with full modifiers it will be producing 16 trade value.

giving you 8 energy credits and 3.2cg and 3.2 unity.

At that point those robots will be feeding your science + providing unity allowing a complete focus on science + alloys

That could be interesting. I'm usually bearish on robot-trade builds because the lack of thrifty, but in this context the time might work out well enough. You could probably even get away with going Mercantile second if you're planning a longer non-war early game, and get the Prosperity bonuses to make the initial buildup of robot plants easier/cost less, which is a real challenge in the mineral gap. Finish prosperity and then go Mercantile, and by that time you might have some leader levels worth talking about.

 

[-Marauder-]

Specifically, it's the Age of other people's clerks.

The biggest beneficiary of Merchant Guilds remains the MegaCorp who can tax them as Prospectoriums for their energy and CG, and get 50% of the raw TV as energy from branch offices, and get 12% of the TV again as free trade agreement, while further taxing that 12% again against any other vassal-member of the trade federation.

Actually, having a vassal Megacorp is much better than being a Megacorp. Branch offices do not apply trade policies.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Actually, having a vassal Megacorp is much better than being a Megacorp. Branch offices do not apply trade policies.

...yes? And? You think this is a disadvantage to being an overlord of other clerks because...?

Trade build policies convert TV collected into 50% energy, 20% CG, and 20% Unity. A Branch Office, with no formal relationship or additional taxation, captures 50% of the TV-energy of a planet regardless of whether it's collected, separate from any taxation which allows the MegaCorp to get more energy per planet than the empire that's producing the energy. The Branch Office, in turn, also provides branch office buildings which can provide non-energy support into your own employment economy, including non-taxable benefits including naval capacity, empire-wide amenity buffs, or direct political power boosts.

Whether the branch office building effects are quite the same value as 20% CG/20% unity is debatable, but even without an overlord/trade agreement you are getting greater energy/market economic value from the other empire's trade world than that empire itself.

As a taxing overlord, the TV exploitation difference is starker.

A Merchant Guild empire who taxes another Merchant Guild empire at 50% rates is getting 25% of TV as energy, and 10% of planet TV as CG. Even if they are taxing another megacorp with branch offices on the planet, they're still getting only 50% of the Branch Office's 50% tv-as-energy, or 25%, so 25-50% of planet TV as energy. The Merchant Guild gets no inherent further CG or energy, as many branch office builds are functionally untaxable. The trade value given by trade agreement is 10%.

A MegaCorp in the same 50% tax rate is getting 75% of planetary TV as energy (25% thru taxes, 50% thru untaxed branch offices), as well as the 10% CG, as well as 100% of the Branch Office buildings. The trade value given by trade agreement is 12%.

This leads us to- maybe-
Merchant Guild Overlord: 25-50% of TV as energy, 10% of TV as CG, 0-50% of Branch Office benefits, 10% Trade Agreement
MegaCorp Overlord: 75% of TV as energy, 10% of TV as CG, 100% of Branch Office benefits, 12% Trade Agreement

A MegaCorp overlord and a Merchant Guilds overlord can set the same taxation scheme, but Branch Offices mean the MegaCorp will always get a significantly higher return from the TV produced on a planet by the subject, as well as the ability to leverage branch offices more more holdings-per-subject.

Further, the MegaCorp doesn't need to commit to a civic to propagate Merchant Guild empires- the ability is innate to MegaCorps. In addition to having 50% more civics available to shape a build, MegaCorps in turn have more tools to maximize the value of their branch-office subjects as trade-build-tributes. MegaCorps can take the Franchising civic without ethic restrictions to negate loyalty penalties and get higher returns from federation-vassals, MegaCorps can use use Permanent Employment to directly add natural clerks onto subject worlds while having massive pop-assembly capacity to spin off uber-clerks to vassals, spiritualist MegaCorps in particular can drastically increase general per-pop TV, and other general MegaCorp overlord combos.


Nothing about the new Merchant Guilds civic has changed how a trade build optimization works. You still want to make and release micro-vassals to produce the TV to compound in the federation, rather than producing it all yourself. The best way to do that- and maximize profit from it- remains the MegaCorp.

 

[honigblute]

if I understand correctly, this

A MegaCorp overlord and a Merchant Guilds overlord can set the same taxation scheme, but Branch Offices mean the MegaCorp will always get a significantly higher return from the TV produced on a planet by the subject, as well as the ability to leverage branch offices more more holdings-per-subject.

only applies if, as you said at the end, you release a micro vassals that focus on producing trade, right?

As in, you, the MegaCorp, build up a planet with commercial zones and pops that are good at producting trade, release it as a vassal and then slap a branch office on that planet? Just asking to make sure I understood correctly.

Because otherwise, if you do not build up the planet for your vassal, I think the Merchant Guild would come out on top, if the subject is a MegaCorp, no?

You, the Merchant Guild, build up a planet with lots of commercial zones, high value trade planet right there for your MegaCorp vassal.
But, playing a MegaCorp and not micro-managing the planet for your vassal before releasing them, as one does when just subjugating someone after a war, they will have, what, a couple of commercial zones at best, research labs and whatever else the AI decides to build?
So, comparing the two, a planet not specialized for trade that has your branch office on the one hand and a high trade planet you own yourself with a branch office you only get the benefits from through the vassal contract on the other.

Am I wrong?

Also, I still don't get how releasing a micro vassal and then taxing it with a vassal contract and using a branch office is supposed to be better than just keeping that planet to yourself and taxing a megacorp for the branch office value on your planet. Yes, MegaCorps are better than Merchant Guilds if the planet belongs to a vassal, but having the planet to yourself and getting the CG and Unity from the policy seems more valuable than an increase in energy?


On another note:

What about Criminal Syndicates?
At 100% crime and with only a single Smuggling Port, their branch offices are worth slightly more than 100% of the planetary trade value. Does that change anything?

440.6 planetary trade value on my planet and a branch office worth 442.3 belonging to my criminal vassal.

On the plus side:
- playing with the Oppressive Autocracy civic, criminal jobs raise stability
- you can ignore the 6-8 enforcers needed on a high pop planet
- unlike when you are the criminal syndicate, you'll never have to worry about crime dropping below 100% because you are in control of the planet
- owning the planet yourself means getting all the CG and Unity from the trade policy
- a criminal branch office is worth a lot more than anything a regular megacorp vassal can do

Maybe it should be the age of the criminal clerks instead.

 

[Kabian]

The age of the merchant... is over.

The age of the clerk starts now

 

[DeanTheDull]

if I understand correctly, this


only applies if, as you said at the end, you release a micro vassals that focus on producing trade, right?

As in, you, the MegaCorp, build up a planet with commercial zones and pops that are good at producting trade, release it as a vassal and then slap a branch office on that planet? Just asking to make sure I understood correctly.

Because otherwise, if you do not build up the planet for your vassal, I think the Merchant Guild would come out on top, if the subject is a MegaCorp, no?

For a like-to-like comparison, the same planets need to be compared between the different overlord models, or else it becomes an arbitrary selection of which planet will focus better.

So, comparing the two, a planet not specialized for trade that has your branch office on the one hand and a high trade planet you own yourself with a branch office you only get the benefits from through the vassal contract on the other.

Am I wrong?

Yes, because this is not a like-to-like comparison on the benefit of alternative taxation models in the same strategic context, both in terms of planet composition assumptions and in outside actors and in the assumptions of spin-off.

The crux of any trade build is to spin off more trade worlds to benefit from taxing the commercial agreements which come with the trade federation, while paying less empire size. Both the MegaCorp and the Merchant Guilds will be spinning off high-trade planets.

Also, I still don't get how releasing a micro vassal and then taxing it with a vassal contract and using a branch office is supposed to be better than just keeping that planet to yourself and taxing a megacorp for the branch office value on your planet. Yes, MegaCorps are better than Merchant Guilds if the planet belongs to a vassal, but having the planet to yourself and getting the CG and Unity from the policy seems more valuable than an inrease in energy?

Keeping all the trade planets to yourself decreases the potential trade you can get.

Commercial pacts create value ex nihilo, providing 10% of TV to the trade partner. In a trade federation, where everyone gets a free commercial pact, trade value generated per member scales with the number of partners, 10% x (# of trade-capable members - 1). If you have 11 non-gestalt members in a trade federation, then you have 10 commercial pact partners to send 10% of your trade to. A 20 TV Merchant or Clerk isn't actually producing 20 TV at this point, it's producing 20 + (20x0.1)x10, or 40 TV, as a result of every other member also gets 10%.

But it's not just your trade that doubles out to others- everyone else is doing the same. Everyone is giving 10% of their TV out to everyone. And all those 10%s can be taxed as much as the base amount.

A culminating trade build isn't focused on producing the trade value, but taxing the trade value that's flowing around the system. You're taxing the clerk of Empire A, and the 10% of the clerk going to Empire B... but also the clerk of Empire B, and the 10% the B sends to A. But also Empire C, and what AC and BC are sending, and CA and CB in reverse. And so on and so on.

MegaCorps and Merchant Guilds work the same way regarding this scaling bonus of micro-vassal spam. MegaCorps just doesn't require a fixed trait to maximize, and gets to do another layer of branch office money on top, which is more than enough to buy the minerals/CG to directly produce unity, which is still more productive per pop than working a trade job for 20% unity conversion.

 

[theBigTurnip385]

That could be interesting. I'm usually bearish on robot-trade builds because the lack of thrifty, but in this context the time might work out well enough. You could probably even get away with going Mercantile second if you're planning a longer non-war early game, and get the Prosperity bonuses to make the initial buildup of robot plants easier/cost less, which is a real challenge in the mineral gap. Finish prosperity and then go Mercantile, and by that time you might have some leader levels worth talking about.

I also don't normally like robot trade builds.

I've been playing around with it and can now bring it online faster.

I open the council position around year 12 now bringing the clerks online and allowing the materialist agenda to begin this combined with robot modding which is online pushes you to 40% robot assembly bringing you to 2.8 when you launch it hits 3.

I don't usually need prosperity as I will be looking for functional architecture which I get to level 2 giving me 20% reduction along with the -15% from my second civic, this also comes in handy for building out a science world being fed from every other world.

A science world runs urban/science with a governor giving you 40% speed on districts/science buildings and 35% cost reduction, this brings science worlds online fast.

In 3.8 science should be pushed onto your colonies too as alloy production on your capital is far too good to ignore.

The great thing about this is you don't need a trade world as your science world has trade jobs, 2 clerks + 2 scientists.

You rush your first world to 10 pops then the same with your second world getting both to 10 pops and both producing science, then build one of them all the way out and then build the other one all the way out or build both out if you get enough feed planets.

You run alloys and minerals on your capital planet if you can't get a 4th mining world.

 

[Dr. B]

With the buffs to Anglers and Pearl Divers, I thought it is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

 

[Meneye]

Basically, we're finally at the age where trade builds are viable and pretty fun to play with

 

[DeanTheDull]

With the buffs to Anglers and Pearl Divers, I thought it is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

Why not both?

More seriously- Anglers/Catalytic is more about the war economy, while the Merchant Guilds is the TV/energy economy. Anglers/Catalytic is the most efficient worker-input-to-alloys-workers-supported economy, and while the civic is locked, it functionally transfers from being an internal-economy bonus (your own production) to a more taxation-efficient economy with more 'productive' tributaries. Anglers is powerful for the same reason Merchant Guilds is as a chance to tax both the basic resource and the CG, while Catalytic allows more efficient empire taxation as you get to make productive use of the other emprires food and minerals, before and after the gradual annexation/release of more Angler states.

An Anglers build is going to start as a trade build,, so there's quite a bit of overlap, it's just going to be less central.