3.3 Unity Open Beta Feedback Megathread

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DC E1G

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I feel like the unity fund could simply be replaced by a discount on the upkeep for edicts. It would be simpler and if the devs are worried about people stacking too many edicts, they could always re-introduce the soft edict cap again (although I'd probably make going over the cap increase the costs to all your edicts rather than have it mess with sprawl).
 
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Avsari

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When I had news of this upgrade I was negative towards it and voiced my opinion in the Steam forum. However seeing other peoples' opinions, I started to wonder and decided to try it by myself.
I decided to do everything just as I always do in order to see how the Beta affected my actions. So far, I'm doing just fine even slightly better than before because Influence is less of a problem. I am playing wide as always and up to now haven't felt a big impact. Notes:
-Empire sprawl effect on tech and Ascension perks so far is minimal. I have a medium-sized empire with 5 planets colonized and many other systems claimed with stations.
-Having to buy leaders with unity doesn't let you spam scientists at game start. You have to wait 4 or 5 months to recruit the first (which is actually the second since you begin with one). Not necessarily something negative, curbs initial exploration a bit, later on as Unity becomes abundant, it stops being a problem. You do have to watch to have a Unity surplus always in order to replace someone who dies.
-Edicts are problematic with the ever increasing upkeep cost. It seems that it is only feasable to sustain very few. Perhaps not something bad? Being able to have all the edicts maybe was overpowered.
So overall I think the changes are good.
 
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streanor

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I've played a couple campaigns in the beta now - 1 ME, 1 hive, and now trying a normal bio empire. Overall, I really like the change - the trade-off between using unity for hiring leaders, boosting planets, etc. vs. saving up for traditions creates interesting strategic choices, which overall give me more of a sense that I am making real choices about how my empire grows. I strongly prefer this new system to the old one based on influence - which too often fell into the "wait to have fun" trap. I fall into the camp of those who think the biggest problem is that the changes don't go far enough. I'll give a concrete example to show what I mean and then make some broader suggestions.

There seems to be consensus that unity costs are poorly balanced in early game. For instance, 200 unity to hire a second exploring scientist out of the gate doesn't feel fun. But that 200 unity also gets fairly trivial later in the game. The obvious solution, I think, is to make the cost scale with sprawl. Early game it should be no more than a couple of months worth of starting unity production for an average empire, say 60. As sprawl increases, the cost of hiring leaders should also increase - at least linearly, but perhaps even geometrically. That way, there is a real difference in play between tall and wide - tall empires, or unity focused ones can churn leaders, while wide ones can't afford to do so. It also makes thematic sense that very large and poorly governed empires find it hard to attract the best talent into government service.

More broadly, I think the biggest problem is that, for all the systems that unity is now tied into, it feels very little like it has much to do with "unity" and therefore the penalties associated with it feel somewhat arbitrary. I think this accounts for why so many players are saying they feel "punished" or that they have "less control" even though the new system objectively provides more strategic depth, not less (if players really didn't want to be forced to make trade-offs to achieve long-term goals, we wouldn't be playing a grand strategy game).

The way I see it, unity should be tied to internal cohesion, stability, and good government, while influence should be used for expansion and foreign relations. That is clearly the direction this beta points towards, and I love it. Long term, empires with insufficient unity should suffer from internal rebellions, decentralization, and eventually run the risk of splintering. This should be more of a threat the larger the empire grows geographically, much like in earth history.

To realize this, there needs to be a real consequence to running on low unity (I'll get into what I mean by "running on low unity" in a minute). Right now, the consequence is that you can't get traditions and other goodies as quickly. But that isn't fun - it's the same "wait to have fun" trap that mana based systems too often run into. Instead, a player should be free to have very few politicians, or priests, etc, and still be able to unlock traditions. BUT, they should be running the risk that negative and potentially even game-defining events will strike, similar to how crime works now.

To implement this, I think "empire sprawl" should be bifurcated into two systems. Here I'll call them "sprawl" and "overextension" but call them what you like.

Sprawl would work much the way that empire sprawl does now, giving linear increases to the cost of technologies, traditions, campaigns, etc. I would rebalance this however to make it simpler to understand and to feel less punishing. There is no good reason that the tradition cost increase should be twice the technology one. Both should increase at the same rate. So should the cost of campaigns and edicts rather than those becoming more expensive 10x faster (not to mention them ignoring the 50 admin "floor" as they currently do). The penalty should be significantly higher than it is now, maybe 3 to 4 times greater, so that it impacts play during the 200 year campaign period, rather than the diminishing returns of expansion only really hurting when you get to absurd levels of sprawl. To balance this, the cost of traditions and technologies should ALL be reduced significantly so that a medium-sized and tech/unity balanced empire unlocks traditions and researches technologies at the same rate as one does in 3.2. To the degree that less thoughtful players will find this off-putting because it seems like a "punishment" many of these changes can probably be hidden under the hood by just using an average growth formula to give "expected" costs to undiscovered traditions/techs. Playtesting can give the average rate of sprawl growth - multiply that by the time it will take to research a tech or tradition, gross it up, and you've got an expected cost. In other words, when I look at a tech option I'm considering researching, the game should display back an "expected" cost based on the notion that my sprawl will increase by the average rate before I finish the research. A tooltip could explain the calculation to the player.

Then there's overextension. This would be a separate value, taken by dividing current unity generation by empire sprawl. There should be different game effects depending on that ratio. If the ratio is very large there should be some kind of bonus to stability reflecting that my empire is cohesive and has a vibrant civil society, interdependent planets, etc. (or the gestalt equivalent). There could even be more interesting bonuses for very high unity over sprawl - like stronger defensive armies, lowered war exhaustion gain, increased trade protection and increased sublight speed in empire space. These bonuses should be useful, but need not be massive to feel good.

On the other hand, if the ratio is very small, regardless of how I'm SPENDING my unity, there should be negative effects. First, decreased stability, but that is far too easy to mitigate. Second, the bonuses for high unity/sprawl should have annoying but manageable counterparts at low unity (again, more piracy, less motivated defensive armies, higher war exhaustion gain etc.) These penalties should hurt but not be crippling (and I would not endorse getting a penalty to sublight speed, that feels far too annoying)

More interesting would be event chains that trigger when the ratio gets small. Sectors should begin exercising autonomy beyond central control. Local planets should begin pursuing their own parochial interests at the cost of the larger society. In short, I should be risking civil war. There should be ways to mitigate this, but they should cost something. For instance, a sector autonomy movement event chain could allow assigning envoys as "inquisitors" to root out disloyalty using the currently way underdeveloped espionage system. In general, a lot of the espionage mechanics could be extended to include internal control systems like secret police - allowing an empire to go on with very low unity at the cost of having to maintain a vast internal security apparatus.

Finally, to make the effects not too punishing, there should be special mechanics if civil war DOES break out, because you want players to be willing to take that risk if it means they can get the resources or obtain the size they want. A civil war could work much the way the machine uprising does now, with an event chain leading to a total war - but rather than divvying up systems at random, it should break down by sector - especially when there are sectors with lots of unhappy pops or recently conquered xenos. But unlike the machine uprising, a status quo should mean that the empire remains unitary. What I would suggest is a modified sort of total war where surrender IS an option. If the empire suffering the rebellion achieves victory, they would instantly reannex the rebels without penalty and get a significant boost to unity generation for a number of decades. If the rebels achieve victory, they get their independence as a new empire or empires. A status quo would mean that there is an uneasy return to unification. The original empire instantly reannexes the rebelling systems, but they don't get a unity generation bonus, and the systems become less productive for a decade - something akin to, but less severe than, the recently conquered penalty.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Love the direction the game is moving in, but I hope to see it much more full realized.
 
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I know I've already written a novel but two more points on balancing sprawl -

1) I agree that sprawl being mostly generated by pops makes tall vs wide feel too similar. The amount of sprawl added by additional planets should be MUCH larger, the amount added by additional systems somewhat larger, and the amount added by pops much smaller. Also, to make habitats worth building, and systems with many planets more valuable (and therefore more worth fighting over) there should be a discount. So planets in an already colonized system should add less sprawl than ones in a new system, and habitats should add less sprawl than other sorts of colonies.

2) To further differentiate playstyles, the amount of sprawl added by new colonies and systems should grow slowly over time. Adding my first two or three colonies shouldn't generate that much additional sprawl, adding my hundredth colony should feel like it is really taxing my empire. If each colony and system added additional sprawl by some manageable exponential growth, say e^x/x, it would model this well while still allowing a decent enough economic base to set up a tall and powerful corporation or machine empire.
 
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Leaders costing Unity doesn't feel great in general, and doesn't make much sense -- we're generating these people out of the collective good feelings of our nation rather than, y'know, paying them? -- but if that's a thing that's going to stick around, can Scientists at least be cheaper? Starting off the game by producing some additional Science vessels to go explore the galaxy is intended and efficient gameplay, and now you can't do that right away, because you literally can't afford another Scientist at start, and you have to save up an amount for each one that is not inconsiderable at early game scales.

Also, Edict/Campaign costs are completely off-the-charts ridiculous, but I'm hardly the first person to tell you guys that.
 
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finik34

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My thougths on the beta:

1. ME's +%33 to empire sprawl penalty hurts really bad late game and decreases ME's multiplayer competitiveness a lot.

2. Already strong hives have -%25 to empire sprawl which is really unnecessary.

3. Sprawl penalty on edict cost is so much, edicts become ridiculously expensive late game.

4. Unity costs for leaders are very expensive early game and very cheap late game. I think base cost should be reduced and empire sprawl should increase the cost.

5. I think empire sprawl from pops should be reduced a bit. Because expansion should be the main reason for sprawl, not development.

6. Non-gestalts have good unity production because of their unity generation jobs but gestalts need to spam unity buildings in order to keep up. For example as a ME you need to take Maintenance protocols civic %100 and spam uplink nodes which has ultra upkeep to keep up with others. And if you're a rogue servitor, 1 unity from a bio-trophy will never be enough.

7. Unavodiable sprawl feels good but numbers should be balanced.

8. Ai looks better.

9. Game is much faster.
 
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HaMiOh

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I just wanted to create a Planet focusing entirely on Unity, but i noticed there is no such Planetary designation. I COULD make an administrative Center, but as i am a deathcult spiritualist i can not even build Administrative Buildings ^^
It would be nice if i coult create a unity planetary designation, preferably something like a holy world or smth that i can let ascend :)
Also my Doomsday RP Build is very unenjoyable with the unemployed pop bugs, i can't wait for your update on that so i can return to saving my empire from its exploding homeplanet :D
 
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I just wanted to create a Planet focusing entirely on Unity, but i noticed there is no such Planetary designation. I COULD make an administrative Center, but as i am a deathcult spiritualist i can not even build Administrative Buildings ^^
It would be nice if i coult create a unity planetary designation, preferably something like a holy world or smth that i can let ascend :)
Also my Doomsday RP Build is very unenjoyable with the unemployed pop bugs, i can't wait for your update on that so i can return to saving my empire from its exploding homeplanet :D

Administrative Centers boost all Administrative jobs which are Bureaucrats, Death Chroniclers, Mortal Initiates, Coordinator Drones, Synapse Drones, Robot Caretakers, High Priests, Priests, Death Priests, Prosperity Preachers, and Managers
 
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Administrative Centers boost all Administrative jobs which are Bureaucrats, Death Chroniclers, Mortal Initiates, Coordinator Drones, Synapse Drones, Robot Caretakers, High Priests, Priests, Death Priests, Prosperity Preachers, and Managers

High Priests but not other Rulers?

Hmm.
 

John MacWhat

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Administrative Centers boost all Administrative jobs which are Bureaucrats, Death Chroniclers, Mortal Initiates, Coordinator Drones, Synapse Drones, Robot Caretakers, High Priests, Priests, Death Priests, Prosperity Preachers, and Managers
It would be nice if this was renamed for spiritualists to something like Ecclesiastical Center and maybe a few other civics could get special designations.
 
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Leaders costing Unity doesn't feel great in general, and doesn't make much sense -- we're generating these people out of the collective good feelings of our nation rather than, y'know, paying them? -- but if that's a thing that's going to stick around, can Scientists at least be cheaper? Starting off the game by producing some additional Science vessels to go explore the galaxy is intended and efficient gameplay, and now you can't do that right away, because you literally can't afford another Scientist at start, and you have to save up an amount for each one that is not inconsiderable at early game scales.

Also, Edict/Campaign costs are completely off-the-charts ridiculous, but I'm hardly the first person to tell you guys that.

Git gud.

No, seriously. The unity cost of scientists forces you to be a lot more strategic in your exploration in the early game. You have to find and judge chokepoints vs profitable systems and plan your expansion, etc.. You can't just sell your food and spam scientists anymore. This a great change and makes the early game a lot more interesting. If you're struggling it's because you're used to easy mode.

Some of the number need to be tweaked, edicts in particular, but overall it's a good change.
 
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Git gud.

No, seriously. The unity cost of scientists forces you to be a lot more strategic in your exploration in the early game. You have to find and judge chokepoints vs profitable systems and plan your expansion, etc.. You can't just sell your food and spam scientists anymore. This a great change and makes the early game a lot more interesting. If you're struggling it's because you're used to easy mode.

Some of the number need to be tweaked, edicts in particular, but overall it's a good change.
Dev diary 237 said:
We understand that this increases the relative costs of choosing to hire several scientists at the start of the game for exploration purposes, or when “cycling” leader traits, as you are now choosing between Traditions and Leaders..
It completely failed to solve the cycling leader problem after early game. For most players it’s more of a unneeded handicap than anything else. Since tradition cost scale but leader cost doesn’t, at some point it’s still very viable spamming scientists.

Oh, maybe I should cycle the whole run to get three sparks of genius.
 

Zarjin1234

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Playing machine empire most worlds are spezialised, having the 50% sprawl penalty is REALLY hindering my gameplay. I'd be well done with battleships by now but it takes so long to tech up even with 2 research worlds and 3rd on the way, Machines are bad at unity, getting penalties for overcapping sprawl is devastating but because you are a robot you just have to keep going over the sprawl if you want to outgrow anyone. My species setting has maintenance protocols, 10% higher sprawl none of the rest matter for this update.
This is absolutely horrendous update for robots specifically.

20220128000704_1.jpg20220128000203_1.jpg20220128000211_1.jpg
 
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Ruler strata pops are to expensive for to small a benefit. give them more amenities generated, and/or remove the consumer goods upkeep of the jobs.
Upgrading a reassembled ship shelter to a colony administration now reduces the amount of amenities generated by the capital building, which is bad.
 
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I mean it's not that significant. Unity cost feels bad for like the first 2-3 years and then it doesn't matter that much.

And it means there's basically nothing to do with energy


Anyway, a couple of other feedbacks:

The Ophidians event is buggy as hell. The "Forced Growth" modifier is permanent and applies to the entire empire. When I completed the "Use Science" project (which is way too long, needs to cost half as much max) it spawned both debuffs for 10 years then gave me a choice to double one of them up for another few years.

Also it appeared to be yet another of those colony events that have no postive outcomes. There were only a choice of different penalties at each stage. "Which bollock do you want to be kicked in?" is not fun gameplay stop bloody doing it!

Also when I completed the Zroni chain it spawned two copies of Zron.
 
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Kenji Stellaris Lover

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I don't feel this change in the beta hits the goals you mentioned in Dev Diaries past. Unity being more important is great, but this beta doesn't give the right sense of why unity is important. What we ended up with here doesn't feel like the change I hoped to see when I read the dev diary last year. We just swapped one burden for another. When I read the dev diary I had something else in mind. I love the AI changes, the performance increases, the force projection generating influence. Just expected different for the Unity rework.

I've been thinking about the systems we have in this game and how they work. Maybe a global malus like "Empire Sprawl" just isn't the way to achieve anything. We have Happiness/Stability/Unity/Influence/trade-routes and now Force Projection. Put those together and I think you can come up with a much more natural system of Order vs. Disorder than "Empire Sprawl" has worked out to be.

I don't know how the code looks, but in most sci-fi universes distance from the capital, unity, happiness, and military might contributes to the stability and crime of a colony. Those things already affect productivity and how much you can get from the planet when you add it to your empire. Why not make them a factor of how well your empire is managed (wealth, happiness, military, etc.) with a balancer that is based on distance from your capital (and perhaps routes from the capital to the outer edges - just like trade lanes, but it's about influence/unity/loyalty/power/etc.)

I think that the difference between Order and Disorder should be about your sphere of influence (SOI). Maybe have tiers of SOI (e.g. High within 5 systems, Medium within 10 systems, low beyond 10 systems away), with the ability to extend this range by various means including military & diplomatic ones.

Before I get flamed, I'm not proposing making it so that a small empire can produce as much as a large one. No. I'm saying, it's good to go wide, but make it so players have to prepare for it beyond just pumping out ships. If you take that planet 20 systems away from your capital, how much control and output can you get from it unless you've prepared for the acquisition? Do you deserve to keep it, or should it be liable to rebel and flip? It should not just come in order and start seeing bonuses after a few years.

Your military power/happiness/influence/unity/Troops-on-world/tech-level/<some new concept> could contribute to your sphere of influence and maintaining that should be an important part of keeping a stable and productive empire. It should also contribute greatly to allowing you to spread that to other empires. Perhaps tiers or levels achievement in those areas contribute to your ability to spread effectively. And, make those things that you can destroy in a war to bring Disorder to your enemies.

The penalties should be harsh to everything outside of your sphere of influence (all production, all jobs, all income). Planets should flip if you have no influence/incentive/cohesion/threat to keep the people in line. Crime should be higher outside of your SOI as well and tougher than just building a few precincts should be able to handle (because their effectiveness is also reduced by Disorder).

A system like that would be easily augmented with means of spreading SOI, super expensive means that perhaps require army presence (bases, forts, ships in starbases [or maybe some kind of expensive module unit if having tons of little "Order Keeping" fleets is annoying]) to bring the "Order" of your empire to the far flung reaches of the galaxy.

Just a thought after playing the beta for a few days and feeling the things I love about this patch and the things that didn't quite hit my own personal expectations based on what you stated you wished to achieve.

I'm sure some of you may have already thought about something like this, and hell, it's probably in another one of the insane amount of replies on this thread, but I wanted to get it off my chest.
 
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DC E1G

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Played about 40 years of a campaign so far and I'm quite enjoying it. I have a few quick comments.

-Like others have said, influence is too abundant now. Even early on when expanding, I'm not nearly as limited as I was before. Probably a combination of power projection (even without abusing the naked corvette) and the lack of early edicts like map the stars.

-I honestly enjoy the unity costs for leaders, it makes for a bit of a decision how quickly you want to rush the first few traditions. 200 unity may be a bit high in terms of feels bad for leaders dying early on, but I didn't mind. I agree with others saying cost should scale with sprawl though.

-As has been mentioned several times, edict costs are hilariously high to the point where they are mostly useless.

-The basic unity producing job being called bureaucrat just feels wrong. I don't really have a preferred alternative in mind, but using the icon and name from the previous job that did something completely different is probably adding to this feeling. I think it would be perfect for byzantine bureaucracy, but I don't care for it as the default. [Edit: perhaps culture workers would be better? seems perfectly generic and fits better for unity IMO]
 
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Yeah. I'm going through yet another playthrough.
  • I absolutely love the AI rework, they are a bit scary now.
  • I love whatever you did that makes the game move so much faster now.
  • I love the new force projection giving me influence.
  • I'm happy with more things costing unity
  • I'm happy with the edicts costing unity. But, that needs to be balanced on the good things a lot more. They are way too expensive.
  • I hate the Unity for leaders and immediate sprawl penalties. They are just untenable and need balancing especially for early game, especially when the AI seems 100% unaffected by it (see screenshot below).

In this most recent run, I lost my science ship when it entered marauder space at ~2203 and then had to sacrifice 2.5 years of tradition progress to get a scientist for my replacement ship. That feeling sucked; especially since I had so much money. And then when I found my neighbor (mind you, the marauder was just south of this screenshot) turns out his homeworld was 3 sectors away and he's magical when it comes to surveying places and building colonies/starbases
1643345699238.jpeg


Enemy empires spawning within 2 or 3 systems seems to happen way more often in this build. Pretty much every game I've played so far. It's like the thing that used to space us out more has been removed.

Oh, and please don't judge me too hard on the fact that I hadn't used a lot of resources up. I was trying to see how little it took to start suffering malus. Didn't build any districts either. Went from 47 to 61 with just pops and a building colony.
 
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This patch is probably the only patch I really care about in years it made me come back to the paradox forums after many years.

IS "TAKE POINT" FINNALY WORKING?

Its broken for years and without that creating big alliances kinda useless while everyone roams around and doing its own thing. I have loaded my old save with 3.3 beta patch activated the "Take point" but none of my allies come to me so I dont know if you fixed it or not?

Look guys I know you put a lot of work into this and its really good that you are fixing the AI BUT PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE FIX THE TAKE POINT BUTTON ITS BROKEN FOR 3 YEARS!

Without take point I see no reason to have any allies and belive me I only have them for roleplaying reasons.

Edit: OMG it works I have disabled the StarNet mod and it actually works I am stunned well I dont care about the rest of the changes so thank you guys :D
 
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