3.3 Unity Open Beta Discussion Thread

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blahmaster6k

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It delays it by, like, 500 minerals, 1 pop, and 2 CG a month... for 3 unity that can pay the unity cost of moving a pop every 3 months. Which will get you to size 10, the colony upgrade that lets you both get a building slot and use building slots for science, further boosts your early-game unity, avoid the colony upgrade unemployment bug from colonists, and stop your colonies from robbing your homeworld of pop growth for much of the early game.

Building a holotheater on a planet is a great investment for getting planets more productive far earlier than they would be.
The resettlement and upkeep is irrelevant. The same can be said for an administrative office, a science lab, an alloy plant, or any other building. It just feels bad to be forced to build entertainers early when previously you only had to worry about amenities on planets after they grew a while.

I unironically would prefer gestalt maintenance drone micro to having to waste a building slot on entertainers before my colony even gets to 10 pops. And I hate maintenance drone micro.
 
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minorcoldd

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picture: can't post link, uploaded below, in 3.2 game year 2300 single fleet powers were more like 200k and I don't know from what this difference in power came, I tried to make it up with numbers

opinion about changes and gameplay, not sure if developers are looking here: I am playing 3.3 beta, no mods, settings: 1000 stars, 30 advanced starts AI (including neighbors), 5 fallen empires, 3 marauder, 1x tech/tradition, 1x primitive, 25x crisis random type, mid game start year 2225, end game start year 2250, grand admiral non-scaling, high aggressiveness, 1x hyperlane, 1x abandoned gateways, 1x wormholes, 2x habitable worlds, 1.5x logistic growth ceiling, 0.25x growth required scaling

shattered ring origin, charismatic+extremely adaptive+solitary+unruly+decadent

dictatorian, authoritarian, militarist, materialist, technocracy and mining guilds, later changed to technocracy with warrior culture and nationalistic zeal. I wanted technocracy and fanatic militarist, but non slave empire was unplayable at the beginning due to unemployed specialists pops not taking free jobs, and workers going there instead, then could not be demoted. This is the first thing in beta that I didn't like compared to 3.2, job management was easier back then, accidentally promoted workers could go back from specialists if unemployed immediately after, but seems it does not work like that anymore.

this post was supposed to be much longer with more opinions about gameplay, but I can't paste further content, it says "Your content can not be submitted. This is likely because your content is spam-like or contains inappropriate elements. Please change your content or try again later. If you still have problems, please contact an administrator"

-------------
edit: seems that part "plus one" written with + and number was problem :D

beginning of game was much more challenging due to 200 unity leader cost, for me it was disadvantage as I like early exploration, I would want to discover every possible anomaly and archeology site, but there are several important traditions to adopt before 2210 (discovery for map the stars edict, possibly plus one research alternative, and then supremacist for reduced ship build cost and war doctrines. With 30 AI it is very fast to met another, which by 2210 usually has 45-60 corvettes, so it's important to develop military as soon as possible, capturing advanced start AI capital is hard but gives large boost to economy.

I like unity costs of early edicts, in the past I very rarely used information quarantine or map the stars due to influence need for expansion. However, edicts which I used often at game start, seem to be not usable anymore due to very high unity costs, capacity and mining subsidies which was obvious choice for 3.2 imperial government, now would lead to 2*50 unity cost multiplied by sprawl, and it would not be possible to balance such economy. Costs of campaigns (recycling and education) are too high to justify using it, calculating cost per month leads to result that one consumer good would be equivalent of 30 energy (with slave empire), however more reasonable in empires with utopian abundance or academic privilege. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I think edict costs (especially subsidies) should be reduced to make it considerable.

Dictatorial seems to be the best government now, although in next game I will get oligarchy instead to choose better leader, preferably with expansionist overtures to reach 95% claim reduction cost without fanatic militarist. Influence is abundant at the beginning due to not many directions of conquests that can be done simultaneously, AI fleets are much more powerful than in 3.2 and they don't split fleets as often as they did, so it's needed to have everything in single place.

It is very hard to balance amenities, the only viable way seems to use pops with charismatic trait as entertainers/duelists, and distribute luxury goods. First choice of ascension is certainly one vision after completing supremacist, my 2nd was interstellar dominion after harmony (more claims), 3rd ecumenopolis after domination, then synthetic evolution, and 6th one (last achieved so far) for 25x crisis I got 50% more damage dealt. Seems that optimal way to play is now getting everything that reduces sprawl, which was sad as building ecumenopolis is much more fun than just seeing a number -50% sprawl from systems and colonies, and planetary prospecting decision from adaptation tree is more fun than -25% sprawl from expansion tree, I would prefer to have more choices when it comes to optimal gameplay and not be limited to one option which as a result is comparable to having 10% more science multiplicatively, would be awesome if imperial prerogative -50% sprawl from systems added also some other feature, that has nice impact on gameplay, such as these related to megastructures or ecumenopolis.

Biology ascension is for me hellish micromanagement, unless there exist some better way of converting species to traits that I want, than choosing every single separately, like default template? synthetics I feel like is the best due to having cleaner species tab and easier to customizable (although every time a planet is conquered, managing and resettling assimilating pop is also not nice, and waiting several years for 80 pops to convert is not efficient, I wish there was option to resettle automatically, or to convert only part of species at time, not all pops at once as assimilating), however two engineering projects and then adding -10% pop sprawl trait, adds pressure to engineering research, which at this point are needed for L-gates, megastructures and repeatable technologies for kinetic weapons. May turn out that for 2250 late game option, it's not enough time to get return, if considering it like investment. I would however miss 10% added range for ship weapons, but next time I will try psionics to compare how much micromanagement is there. Ship modules also look very nice.

With over 100 planets, could be better to get tech ascendancy instead of ecumenopolis (there should be several anyway from relic worlds), and megastructure related ones instead of evolution, to get more megastructures between 2250 and 2275. In this game it was very good, I had 50% more build speed from L-gate empire, ruined megastructures were sentry array (repaired as first and I think it's the best possible), strategic command center (2nd) and dyson sphere (third), as comparison, I think the worst options would be having ruined mega art, interstellar assembly and mega shipyard. Last one is nice to have, but when I captured some L-gates and built fortresses with 6 shipyards with fleet officer governor in every sector, capacity for constructing battleships was sufficient to be in pair with 6k alloys and 20 dark matter per month. L-gates greatly help with logistics and conquest.

About 2280 I had 3 fallen empire capitals, first one certainly keepers of knowledge for ecumenopolis and archives, I waited until 2275 to get it first, even though it was on the other side of galaxy, and could go to closer one instead. Ring world is very nice too, adds a lot of easy researcher jobs to resettle pops from conquered planets, although I wish there was factory/forge designation like in ecumenopolis, or generator world, at least after synthetic ascendancy. During this year, every time I conquered AI capital, I built gateway there to continue conquest after 10 years of truce, although doubtful if with L-gates it's better to have 10 gateways or 25 more battleships. I like having possibility of rapid deployment into every corner of map, with jump drive, 2x advanced afterburners and dark matter thrusters, it was very helpful when fallen empire awakened around 2280 and they had 4x 140k fleets, that's why sentry array is my favourite megastructure.

Unity costs for leaders make it unreasonable to have scientists assisting research, after synthetic evolution 4500 unity governor/admiral cost is very high too, but advantage is that I didn't like micromanaging and rerolling their traits anyway, I think I will only get any admiral for fleet when crisis arrives, for plus 10% range from synthetics. But with such a high cost, maybe it could be possible to have more control over traits that they have, like initial trait cost similar as when creating species? it is very discouraging now to risk loosing so many unity, I had same dilemma when searching for retired fleet officer governor.

I really like idea of planet ascension, but sadly I was never able to use it because of very high cost, like 700k unity when tradition costs were more like 150k, and percentage modifiers increases were not worth it even on ecumenopolis or ring worlds. I would suggest reducing these costs.

In 2300 I have not even 1/2 galaxy due to lack of fanatic militarist nor expansionist overtures (difference between 85% and 95% claim reduction is huge, and influence is also needed for gateways and ecumenopolis) although most of AI large planets were conquered. Summing up I feel like change of administrative capacity adds more challenge and fun, I didn't like making bureaucrats planets, however tradition adoption cost increased by almost 900% is huge, and with techs 5x times as expensive as it was in 3.2, having 31k research is like 6k earlier which would be bad result by 2300. I however like these changes, and new features add more replayability and fun to game.

edit: I would enjoy maybe allow higher admiral command limit for higher unity cost, maybe even not linearly? quite tiring to assign admirals to 50 fleets, also for unknown reason stack is splitting, 100 battleships are far ahead on front and main force is behind, which will lead to large looses (picture 2)

I am hoping developers maybe will read this post and maybe add more nice changes to game, I really like to play it
 

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Echo Candor One

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I've seen people lay out the math for why building more Research Labs was (often) better than building -sprawl buildings in previous versions.

Have you done the math to figure out when the +10% research bonus is worth the Administration pops (which could have been Researcher pops instead)?

What are the conditions for which paying those extra Administrators is worth the +10% research bonus?
Nope. I'm not going to, either, because that's not the only decision to make with unity. Do you want more early exploration? Minerals? Growth? Starbases? If yes to the latter, those also increase sprawl, which in turn might increase their own monthly cost.
 
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Nope. I'm not going to, either, because that's not the only decision to make with unity. Do you want more early exploration? Minerals? Growth? Starbases? If yes to the latter, those also increase sprawl, which in turn might increase their own monthly cost.

The thing is, some posters have already presented pretty compelling cases for why that edict is NEVER worthwhile.

If you want to convince people that there are times when it is worthwhile, you're going to have to show how and when it is a sensible choice.

Right now, it looks like we have some good ways to spend Unity, and also some ways to sabotage ourselves.
 
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Olterin

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The resettlement and upkeep is irrelevant. The same can be said for an administrative office, a science lab, an alloy plant, or any other building. It just feels bad to be forced to build entertainers early when previously you only had to worry about amenities on planets after they grew a while.

I unironically would prefer gestalt maintenance drone micro to having to waste a building slot on entertainers before my colony even gets to 10 pops. And I hate maintenance drone micro.
There's one thing that can be done instead - build a housing building. I know, it's horrible, it has no jobs ... but hear me out. You spend one building slot to get another 5 amenities and 3 housing, at the cost of 2 energy, for no pop requirement - allowing you to funnel those pops into basic resource jobs on this new colony for a good while. Then, when the colony is actually somewhat sizeable, the housing can be replaced with a theater.
 
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DeanTheDull

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The resettlement and upkeep is irrelevant. The same can be said for an administrative office, a science lab, an alloy plant, or any other building. It just feels bad to be forced to build entertainers early when previously you only had to worry about amenities on planets after they grew a while.

If resettlement and upkeep costs are irrelevant, then there is no meaningful delay to getting your colonies to productive use, which was your objection to the mechanics.


I unironically would prefer gestalt maintenance drone micro to having to waste a building slot on entertainers before my colony even gets to 10 pops. And I hate maintenance drone micro.
Fortunately, you'll be able to do both.
 
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Dreadnova

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Now that unity is so important, can we please have a separated slider to increase/decrease traditions costs from tech costs? It would give a lot of customization to playstyles within the game, such as balancing tech and unity rush as one may like.
 
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Arty0m2033

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Cutthroat politics should also have the -20% edict upkeep on top of their edict cost reduction now that edicts have an upkeep cost to continue, making them more viable and attractive to use. Also the Defender of the Galaxy Ascension perk should also have a 20% ascension perk instead of a +20 blanket for opinion, namely considering that opinion on it's own carries an even heavier penalty for opening/closing your borders to other empires in which.... other AI empires will toggle freely as if it doesn't even matter like a light switch.
 

Critical Ethics

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The resettlement and upkeep is irrelevant. The same can be said for an administrative office, a science lab, an alloy plant, or any other building. It just feels bad to be forced to build entertainers early when previously you only had to worry about amenities on planets after they grew a while.

I unironically would prefer gestalt maintenance drone micro to having to waste a building slot on entertainers before my colony even gets to 10 pops. And I hate maintenance drone micro.
I am absolutely baffled by someone calling entertainers a waste.
 
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Lidhuin

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It might be outside the scope of this update, but I feel the new sprawl system has so much potential for fundamentally changing how megacorps play. There's been a hint of it there for a while with their increased penalty to sprawl, but it was never really realized since you could just increase your admin cap before.

The new system makes it so the penalties cannot be ignored, which is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, full realization of this unique playstyle is currently is held back by the fact that branch offices are a bit weak and there's little incentive for megacorps to not just blob to all hell as long as they keep building labs. Increased sprawl penalties along with buffs to branch offices could allow for a really unique style of play.
Branch offices basically shouldn't add any sprawl, thus encouraging an actual tall play where you earn your research through your many, many subsidiaries.

That's a bit finicky though.
 
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Mcgan

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I do not know if its my coding program, but I am using Paradox syntax in vcode and it looks like one of your defines comments is not spaced so it might not be counting it as commented out. See the below line in the defines file.

PLANET_ASCENSION_SPRAWL_MODIFIER = -0.05# Reduction of planet sprawl per level of ascension
That doesn't matter, because "#" is considered part of the comment.

They usually put a space to make it easier to read, but sometimes they forget.
 
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Echo Candor One

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The thing is, some posters have already presented pretty compelling cases for why that edict is NEVER worthwhile.

I can immediately think of one case where it's a free 10% research -- imperial cult. With the utmost respect for the spreadsheet crowd, they have a tendency to get myopic about what is and isn't viable, good, or interesting, and they are especially good at ignoring the context of a specific game in lieu of planning around incredibly idealized situations.

Right now, it looks like we have some good ways to spend Unity, and also some ways to sabotage ourselves.

The way the beta is shaping up leaves me hopeful for a fairly well balanced release.
 
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blahmaster6k

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How is changing you build order a problem?
Is it not enough to say that it feels bad compared to the old patch and I personally don't like it? And I'm saying this as someone who wishes the sprawl changes went further towards punishing tech rushing/wide. But I really am not a fan of the unity rework because they've rebalanced a bunch of other things in ways I don't think were necessary or beneficial.
 
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grommile

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Is it not enough to say that it feels bad compared to the old patch and I personally don't like it?
If you just want to say you don't like it, feel free.

If you want anyone to care that you don't like it, you need to make an argument for why they should care.

Making sure my mining colonies have the circenses set up quickly to go with the panem being shipped from my agricultural worlds seems like a perfectly reasonable requirement :)
 
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blahmaster6k

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If you just want to say you don't like it, feel free.

If you want anyone to care that you don't like it, you need to make an argument for why they should care.

Making sure my mining colonies have the circenses set up quickly to go with the panem being shipped from my agricultural worlds seems like a perfectly reasonable requirement :)
I did make an argument earlier. Not everyone agrees and that's fine, but that doesn't make my argument invalid. Everyone has their own vision of how the game would be in an ideal world. I just don't feel like trying to explain myself further when the response to my argument is basically just "this is fine and you're wrong for caring about that." Yes I know how to work around the changes. Tech slowing down I am fine with. Exploration slowing down? Feels bad. Building actually important buildings slowing down? Feels bad. Hiring leaders more costly? Also feels bad. And I don't think that slowing down all of that is a balance improvement either.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Is it not enough to say that it feels bad compared to the old patch and I personally don't like it?

Not really, no. Not if you actually want to affect any changes.

You not liking something does not make it bad in any objective sense the developers should, or even can, adjust to compensate for. Especially if your supporting arguments become self-contradictory, such as arguing that a change of build orders is simultaneously a huge delay to productivity and not a burdensome cost at all. It can't be both, and if you're resorting to pure opinion when questioned, there's a good chance it's neither.

In any given change to a system, there is always a subset of people who just don't like change, regardless of what the change actually is. Their feedback is functionally useless since it doesn't actually address any issues in a way that can be assessed as worth the cost, or offer a means of potential compromise. The quality of your supporting arguments are your chance to distinguish yourself from these people.



And I'm saying this as someone who wishes the sprawl changes went further towards punishing tech rushing/wide. But I really am not a fan of the unity rework because they've rebalanced a bunch of other things in ways I don't think were necessary or beneficial.

Since you aren't making an argument on how the changes were not beneficial, just that you didn't like it, so what?
 
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DeanTheDull

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Branch offices basically shouldn't add any sprawl, thus encouraging an actual tall play where you earn your research through your many, many subsidiaries.

That's a bit finicky though.

The same incentive is provided when you make branch office sprawl more efficient than non-branch office sprawl.

Since a branch office can easily give you the value of nearly half a dozen pops in both output and avoided upkeep, they kind of already do.
 

Nevars

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The Amenities and ethics attraction is all they really need to be significantly better. Spiritualist ethics and Veneration just make them much better.

As a dedicated unity producer world, 2 amenities is all you need (or want), as the maximum stability buff available from excess amenities comes from... double amenities production compared to consumption. That gives +20% planetary happiness, which translates to 12 stability, or 7.2% job output.

The planetary ethics attraction from Temple buildings also increases the ratio of Spiritualist ethics. Which- as long as you aren't going AI and just sticking to robots- is trivial to keep at 60, which gives all spiritualist pops another +5 happiness, or 1.8% output, making 8% output.

Which is nice, but you're also producing unity from factions, and having a large, cohesive state faction produces more. Spiritualist is very easy to keep exceptionally high if you lean into it (simply being formally spiritualist and psionic is an almost guaranteed 75 base happiness, with multiple options for more; having droids is only -5, 70 is still higher than most factions), and Priests and the Veneration edict are both bringing their own ethics attraction to keep that homogenity.
I will concede that the spiritualist ethic attraction from temple is nice.

But I will still argue that 2 amenities per job is useless because 1 pop consume 1 amenity, meaning that priest amenities can only support oneself and one other pop so it probably only worth it in one situation that you brought up, that's in planet specialized in unity that it will only has priest job there.

Unity from faction is uh just cherry on top cuz even when majority of my pop is spiritualist and has high approval rating, spiritualist faction only produce about 90-100 unity (and that's factoring in a lot of empire wide unity bonus) which is good but not good enough.

Does this means that for spiritualist to be good, you need to play specific build like oligarchy, spiritualist, egalitarian? If it is then...yeah not gonna do it for me.