2nd Wonder slot in holy site provinces

[Vivs]

I just watched a video on YouTube from Paradox, wherein the devs showcase some of the new features for the upcoming Great Works expansion and it got me thinking.

Could we maybe get an update to the Wonders feature in the future, one that would maybe create an extra wonder slot in provinces that happen to be holy sites?

I ask this because I was holding off on playing my first-ever Hellenic reformation run until after the update hit, so I would have more tools for roleplaying a pagan Roman emperor. I was planning on building the Great Temple wonder in each of the Helennic faith's holy sites, as part of the RP.

After watching this video, however, it dawned on me that this plan wouldn't work for every holy site. This is due to some of them either having more fitting great works to be built (e.g. a Great University in Athens), or they already having a pre-existing wonder (albeit destroyed at the start of the game), such as the Great Lighthouse in Alexandria.

So maybe in the future the devs could implement a second wonder slot in holy site provinces, just so we can build the obvious wonder for it (Great Temples/Cathedrals/Mosques) without sacrificing the other opportunities for roleplay in said province.

Imagine being a ruler whose capital just so happens to be at one of the holy sites for their religion, being torn between building the Palace or the Temple (e.g. a Germanic pagan ruler with a capital in Uppland; being king of Jerusalem, or the Byzantine Emperor).

So, CK2 devs, could you think on it? Pretty please?

 

[Rags17]

Choice is what makes life interesting.

 

[knppel]

Choice is what makes life interesting.

That and, taking in account last week's dev diary, I am strongly feeling that one wonder max per province will be the go-to-path for the developers mostly due to balance reasons.
Ultimately, I'd estimate that the cost and production time will be scaled so high that with a casual approach to a playthrough, we'll simply not be able to spam wonders in all provinces of our realm anyway.
If opposed to that we do NK farming, or other related methods that should imho not be the focus of the developers to take in account. And even then, I'd first go and try a run to fill all provinces with wonders, and then ask for more slots.

Nonetheless however, I personally am quite sure it's gonna be one slot for good- mind you, the base levels of cathedral/temple/mosque grants a whopping 100% tax income when it's finished and standing, and other great works offer bonuses that can be rated similarly, and infront of this context, with a single great work being indeed a great asset to the county it occupies, one great work is what it's gonna be for vanilla.

 

[treb]

That and, taking in account last week's dev diary, I am strongly feeling that one wonder max per province will be the go-to-path for the developers mostly due to balance reasons.
Ultimately, I'd estimate that the cost and production time will be scaled so high that with a casual approach to a playthrough, we'll simply not be able to spam wonders in all provinces of our realm anyway.
If opposed to that we do NK farming, or other related methods that should imho not be the focus of the developers to take in account. And even then, I'd first go and try a run to fill all provinces with wonders, and then ask for more slots.

Nonetheless however, I personally am quite sure it's gonna be one slot for good- mind you, the base levels of cathedral/temple/mosque grants a whopping 100% tax income when it's finished and standing, and other great works offer bonuses that can be rated similarly, and infront of this context, with a single great work being indeed a great asset to the county it occupies, one great work is what it's gonna be for vanilla.

Besides that we all know there will be a litany of hagia sophia/kaaba mosque mods flooding the workshop by April 3rd...

 

[knppel]

Oh, quite likely indeed. If its doable we will also very likely see several great wonder slots in a province. I just think it won't be done for the base game as the whole balancing I've seen so far indicates both that building a single wonder can take several generations, and will on the other hand be so beneficiary for the province where it's located that putting an additional thing on top has to be prohibited.

 

[Rags17]

Oh, quite likely indeed. If its doable we will also very likely see several great wonder slots in a province. I just think it won't be done for the base game as the whole balancing I've seen so far indicates both that building a single wonder can take several generations, and will on the other hand be so beneficiary for the province where it's located that putting an additional thing on top has to be prohibited.

You know that they will almost certainly be implemented in the same way as Hospitals, Forts and trade Posts, right ? There will be a "Great Wonder" slot that you can pull out for each province's holding view, you will then be able to fill it or not, it won't be like a regular holding where you can get (and see) more than one.

 

[treb]

h that building a single wonder can take several generations.

This is quite funny, actually. Most evidence indicates the pyramid of Khufu(the largest) only took a decade or two to build, the great lighthouse only took 12 years. Similarly the Hagia Sophia only took 6 years to build. Even the west didnt take generations to build great cathedrals, as an example Durham Cathedral only took 40 years to build.

 

[Vivs]

Choice is what makes life interesting.

Exactly, that's why I'm asking for more of it.

Unless, of course, what you meant was that choosing between mutually-exclusive options is what makes video games interesting, though that's its own discussion. I'd be inclined to agree with you, at least with regards to strategy games, but, then again, I'm talking about something that would affect 5 out of hundreds of a player's provinces. It can even be a game rule, just for immersion's sake.

 

[knppel]

Given people did not average age to eighty years back then, that does fit my definition of "several generations".
And on St. Stephans cathedral Vienna buildt, with breaks in between, from 1130 up to the mid 1500s. And if you visit it today it's still under renovation and construction all the time...

But damn, the amount of pilgrims, and nowadays secular tourists to just take a selfie, still generates massive revenue, no question, so much us Viennese happily donate for our dome

 

[Vivs]

Nonetheless however, I personally am quite sure it's gonna be one slot for good- mind you, the base levels of cathedral/temple/mosque grants a whopping 100% tax income when it's finished and standing, and other great works offer bonuses that can be rated similarly, and infront of this context, with a single great work being indeed a great asset to the county it occupies, one great work is what it's gonna be for vanilla.

If that is the case for the bonuses, then I hope they bump up the costs and build times, seeing as in the video I mentioned the average cost was about 1500 gold and the average build time was around 20 years. Starting from the earliest bookmark, a skilled player (without resorting to any cheese or exploits) with a somewhat large realm could maybe put a wonder in half their provinces with those parameters.

 

[knppel]

I've went through that calculation too- and arguably, a Byzantine Emperor focusing on making his realm prosper, and managing to do so, rather than to invest every single denar in the army, should have that option already from the game start, for instance, so I don't see much of an issue with this.
While certainly a really good asset for any province, the modifiers are not potentially game breaking, specially as we won't be able to stack them in the base game.

 

[TinWiz]

Even the west didnt take generations to build great cathedrals, as an example Durham Cathedral only took 40 years to build.

And yet the Sagrada Familia is on 137 years and counting...

I think a "Great Wonder" Cathedral would take a while, though. St. Peter's Basilica in Rome took 120 years.

 

[klopkr]

I wish they would have made the system capable of handling multiple wonders.

 

[Woifee]

Making meaningful choices is good gameplay design. Therefor I support the one great work slot.

 

[Azsouth]

Ya, this is a game (fact), but it's also heavily based on history, not fiction, and there where multiple great works in major cities throughout the history this game covers, to limit those historically accurate area's to one great work would be a disservice to the game, and history. There are ways they can balance it though, like making certain other places that are commonly player capitals having the same options major cities like Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Mecca, Baghdad, and Alexandria should have. Also if they do go that route eventually they could add in some sort of population mechanic, similar to Imperator or something, once those devs come back to CKII (if any are on loan), that if your a stubborn person and never move your capital to the more common places, that you could build whatever county that is up to say a "Metropolis" like 1 million + population or something that unlocks addition great works slots. Personally I feel like they rushed this because it is going to be free, therefore adding new novel things like this is primarily aesthetic atm and I believe that they will fully buff this feature out, as well as adding additional things, in a DLC that we will need to pay for in the future once they test the waters to see if these changes are well received or not. Also, it kinda feels like they are releasing this free content in conjunction with the Imperator release and promotions to show that they will still maintain the game while the new game being released gets off the ground.