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Black Lotus

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I'm new to Victoria (A HoI Fan myself) and the first time I tried it, it was way to complicated, but I'm trying it again, I read that updated manual so I think I'm ready to tackle this game.

2 Questions that are really 1 together

What is exactly Consciousness and Plurality it's like two things opposite, but the same...sooo lost.
 

Henry v. Keiper

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Well consciousness is how much the people know about their current government's decisions. Its usually affected by events or actions you take - for example, if you start oppressing liberal professors or newspapers, the liberals in your nation are going to start saying, "Hey...wait a minute...I'm picking up a pattern here." At least that's what I can gather.
 

iBaLkiD

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http://victoria.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

This will help you learn the game and still have fun. Then your life will be over as your eyes get dark bags, you lose weight, and aquire a new pasty white complexion. You will look like hell, but who cares, you just crushed the O.E. in the Crimean war!

Seriously tho Vicky isnt an all war game like HOI. If you like building an empire, running an economy, and going to war as a last resort or as a defense then you should have fun. HOI is geared more toward warfare and that it. There are a plethora of things to consider in Vicky. Once your comftorable with it all tho, hoo boy, refer back to the first paragraph of this post.
 

Memnon

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Ok, have patience my son, this is a complicated subject...

When I wrote the first and second editions of the manual, I was basically copying Carligula's essay, but I think I have the subject down a bit better now.

Consciousness the numerical representation of how well a POP understands its own politics. The higher the consciousness, the more they understand their own political needs and desires. This is not necessarily a bad thing. If you have a largely conservative population and a conservative government (Russia), consciousness has positive effects. Conservative POPs with high consciousness are only realizing that they are conservative, so they'll like the conservative government. Institute a liberal government, however, and watch the high consciousness conservative POPs rebel like mad. The opposite, of course, is also true. If you have a largely liberal population and a liberal government, high consciousness will have no negative effects either.

The problem comes when you have a divided population. Look at Austria for an example. By the 1880, even a well managed Austria will tend to have a large liberal minority. Since Austria will likely still have a conservative government, and its POPs will have mid to high levels of consciousness, that liberal minority, as it realizes the government does not suit it, will have its militancy increase rapidly as a result. This next point is key: if the POPs have very low consciousness, you can pass off any government on them. Think about it. If you had a 90% liberal population, you could never have a conservative government--unless those people didn't know that they were liberal. And that's exactly what consciousness is--the numerical representation of how well POPs understand their own politics.

Thence comes the connection between consciousness and militancy--if you have a divided population (as most countries eventually do), then the only way to keep the minority ideology content is to keep them from knowing that they are any different from the majority, which means keeping their consciousness low. Sure, you can pass reforms and lower taxes and such, but those are really only band aids to cover wounds that have already been made. Keeping consciousness low keeps the wound from ever forming at all.

Plurality is the numerical representation of your society's demand for a democratic government. The higher the plurality percentage, the more your country wants to be a democracy, and the less content they are not being a democracy. Just like consciousness, plurality affects militancy, but unlike consciousness, the effect varies by the form of government. In monarchies, plurality increases militancy because the monarchy is undemocratic; in constitutional monarchies plurality doesn’t affect militancy at all, because at least in game terms, constitutional monarchies are just as monarchical as democratic, so it evens out; in democracies, plurality reduces militancy, because the people are getting exactly what they want. In simpler terms, plurality in monarchies is bad, plurality in constitutional monarchies doesn’t matter, and plurality in democracies is good.

This is different from consciousness specifically because it has nothing to do with POP ideologies. In theory, a country could have 100% plurality and also be 100% conservative—but only if that country were a democracy. Think about it. If a country had a very high plurality, its people would want to be a democracy. If that country were also 100% conservative, they would just elect a conservative party, and that would be that. If, on the other hand, a country with 100% plurality were a monarchy, the militancy would be off the charts, and the POPs would begin to convert to reactionaries and Anarcho-liberals and other nasty kinds of people.

Hopefully that made sense. Please, if it didn’t, tell me what was confusing and I’ll explain.

Regards,
Memnon
 
Last edited:

november

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Memnon said:
Ok, have patience my son, this is a complicated subject...

When I wrote the first and second editions of the manual, I was basically copying Carligula's essay, but I think I have the subject down a bit better now.

Consciousness the numerical representation of how well a POP understands its own politics. The higher the consciousness, the more they understand their own political needs and desires. This is not necessarily a bad thing. If you have a largely conservative population and a conservative government (Russia), consciousness has positive effects. Conservative POPs with high consciousness are only realizing that they are conservative, so they'll like the conservative government. Institute a liberal government, however, and watch the high consciousness conservative POPs rebel like mad. The opposite, of course, is also true. If you have a largely liberal population and a liberal government, high consciousness will have no negative effects either.

The problem comes when you have a divided population. Look at Austria for an example. By the 1880, even a well managed Austria will tend to have a large liberal minority. Since Austria will likely still have a conservative government, and its POPs will have mid to high levels of consciousness, that liberal minority, as it realizes the government does not suit it, will have its militancy increase rapidly as a result. This next point is key: if the POPs have very low consciousness, you can pass off any government on them. Think about it. If you had a 90% liberal population, you could never have a conservative government--unless those people didn't know that they were liberal. And that's exactly what consciousness is--the numerical representation of how well POPs understand their own politics.

Thence comes the connection between consciousness and militancy--if you have a divided population (as most countries eventually do), then the only way to keep the minority ideology content is to keep them from knowing that they are any different from the majority, which means keeping their consciousness low. Sure, you can pass reforms and lower taxes and such, but those are really only band aids to cover wounds that have already been made. Keeping consciousness low keeps the wound from ever forming at all.

Plurality is the numerical representation of your society's demand for a democratic government. The higher the plurality percentage, the more your country wants to be a democracy, and the less content they are not being a democracy. Just like consciousness, plurality affects militancy, but unlike consciousness, the effect varies by the form of government. In monarchies, plurality increases militancy because the monarchy is undemocratic; in constitutional monarchies plurality doesn’t affect militancy at all, because at least in game terms, constitutional monarchies are just as monarchical as democratic, so it evens out; in democracies, plurality reduces militancy, because the people are getting exactly what they want. In simpler terms, plurality in monarchies is bad, plurality in constitutional monarchies doesn’t matter, and plurality in democracies is good.

This is different from consciousness specifically because it has nothing to do with POP ideologies. In theory, a country could have 100% plurality and also be 100% conservative—but only if that country were a democracy. Think about it. If a country had a very high plurality, its people would want to be a democracy. If that country were also 100% conservative, they would just elect a conservative party, and that would be that. If, on the other hand, a country with 100% plurality were a monarchy, the militancy would be off the charts, and the POPs would begin to convert to reactionaries and Anarcho-liberals and other nasty kinds of people.

Hopefully that made sense. Please, if it didn’t, tell me what was confusing and I’ll explain.

Regards,
Memnon

Bravo Memno! This is the most lucid explanation of the subject I’ve read. Well done.
 

november

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iBaLkiD said:
I hope you realize i was joking, right? You know sarcasm?

Um, actually I had just agreed to come to your house with Memnon and pour Kool-Aid in your hyper-critical keyboard.

“Forget about it Memnon—he says he was only joking.”
 
Last edited:

OriginalRafiki

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november said:
Whatever... By the way, Memno is Memnon's smarter and older brother.
And here I thought he was one of Memnon's schizofrenic personalities. Huh.

;) Rafiki
 

iBaLkiD

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november said:
Um, actually I had just agreed to come to your house with Memnon and pour Kool-Aid in your hyper-critical keyboard.

“Forget about it Memnon—he says he was only joking.”

Hot damn, free koolaide! Can you pour some down my gullet as well!

I have enough crap in my keyboard, its really gross actually...
 

unmerged(27373)

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iBaLkiD said:
http://victoria.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

This will help you learn the game and still have fun. Then your life will be over as your eyes get dark bags, you lose weight, and aquire a new pasty white complexion. You will look like hell, but who cares, you just crushed the O.E. in the Crimean war!

Seriously tho Vicky isnt an all war game like HOI. If you like building an empire, running an economy, and going to war as a last resort or as a defense then you should have fun. HOI is geared more toward warfare and that it. There are a plethora of things to consider in Vicky. Once your comftorable with it all tho, hoo boy, refer back to the first paragraph of this post.

You can make vicky almost an all war game if you choose :D
 

unmerged(27373)

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eiderdown said:
sorry for this little hijack, but what is "koolaide" ?

it's a popular kid's drink.

lots of sugar, food coloring. I never really got into it, prefer juice, water, and milk myself. And of course, tea and coffee :)
 

iBaLkiD

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Blitzkrieg said:
You can make vicky almost an all war game if you choose :D

Oh i mostly do. I am a war monger!

I was just comparing Vicky to HOI. HOI has an uber simplified econ model. It literally takes no time at all to upgrade your industry. Industrial cpacity, or IC for short. You spend those on research, units/supplies, tech's and feeding your populace.

Coal Steel Rubber and Oil are the resources. Thats it. The rest is planning your tech research, building and organizing your army groups(Loads of different units, if'n it was in WWII it is in this game), influence a few nations, then let loose your dogs of war upon your enemies. Less then 12 year time span to worry about/thoough the clock ticks very slowly.



A really sweet MP game that i still play on a regualr basis. There is even a MP Players association that is very active. Good fun.

Well i need sleep now since i need to be back at work at 8 in the mornin :(