[2.7.1 Beta OVSF] Gavelkind - Son and Grandson gets land after succession

[kmh42]

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Gavelkind only considers kids and only when all legitimize kids are dead it reverts back to primo, right? My Duke died and his Duke title and two of his five counties did go to his third son because the first one is dead and the second one is a Bishop. The other three Counties went do hist grandson, the son of his firstborn, but why? I had the impression that as long as ONE sons is available I am save from realm split.

 

[[Arthur-PDX]]

Aaah... inheritance... and Gavelkind at that... The way it works is that grandchildren are still in the line of succession, they're just placed after the direct children, which is why they're not your primary heir (as long as you have eligible children that is). But yeah, this is intended behaviour.


Arthur

 

[kmh42]

Aaah... inheritance... and Gavelkind at that... The way it works is that grandchildren are still in the line of succession, they're just placed after the direct children, which is why they're not your primary heir (as long as you have eligible children that is). But yeah, this is intended behaviour.


Arthur

2000 hours of CK2 and I am still didn't learn or see everything. But where is this rule documented?
The Wiki say this:

With gavelkind succession, dead characters do not "placehold" as they do under primogeniture. If your firstborn dies, you can expect your second son to inherit rather than an unready grandson.

And the Ingame tooltip say this:

Spoiler

OK, the grandson is listed in the title 'Title loss on succession' notification, in the tooltip in the CoA and in the inheritance tab, but he and other grandsons, of older dead sons, are listed before other direct sons. See here:
1337 Bookmark High Chief Ivan of Vladimir, vassal of golden Horde. He has three living sons, Simeon, Ivan Jr. and Andrei and the oldest one has a son of his own, Vasiliy. Vasiliy is correctly show as the second heir because when Ivan dies and after that Simoen dies he will inherent. But when I kill Simeon before Ivan dies, Vasiliy become the third place on succession but is still show as the second one. This is definitely bugged.

Spoiler

I gave Simeon another son but this one will not inherent anything? Why is this? Is this rule also in place on elective gavel kind?
Gavelkind and elective Gavelkind may be mechanically correct but it is a pain in the ass to correctly foresee the succession when a bunch of kids and grandkids are present. The same goes for the magically title creation in elective Gavelkind. You never know who gets what newly created titles. And I understand that the capital goes to a second in line heir if he isn't able to get any land but it is stupid that you, as a player get no notification for this. Me as a experienced player know how to deal with GK and eGK to not get in a bad situation but it took so many times to understand the inner workings of the laws and as you see I still not know every detail. This needs to be changed! I would like to start a discussion thread about the topic on how the game could present the succession on GK in a more understandable way, but only when you, the devs, are willingly to change something to the better. When you don't care then I choose to don't care either.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Disagree.
The heir of the former primary heir has as far as i can recall always inherited.
The succession law is for the direct sons. After the direct sons it goes primo, that's why the second son of Simeon doesn't inherit.
It makes perfect sense.
It's just that people like to not play gavelkind and when they do they get confused.
My opinion.

 

[kmh42]

The heir of the former primary heir has as far as i can recall always inherited.

I believe that. It's just that I wondered because I never came across this rule the past three years.

The succession law is for the direct sons. After the direct sons it goes primo, that's why the second son of Simeon doesn't inherit.
It makes perfect sense.

It only makes sense when you know how the rules work but the game don't tell you the rules. Not even on the wiki or in this 'gavelkind explained' thread which is mentioned in the wiki is this rule stated. And to some degree it doesn't make sense. The grandsons of a second son do inherent when you have a still living son who is the primary heir. Only when this last son dies it defaults back to the grandson of the oldest dead son. This is maybe mechanically correct but it doesn't make much sense.

What do you say about the inheritance tab listing? This is definitely flawed.

 

[[Arthur-PDX]]

I would like to start a discussion thread about the topic on how the game could present the succession on GK in a more understandable way, but only when you, the devs, are willingly to change something to the better. When you don't care then I choose to don't care either.

Calm down man, nobody's trying to spite anyone, and I can assure you Gavelkind is as displeasing for players as it is for us : since the game is so old, team members have constantly been moving around and with retouching of features here and there, there is loss of information and confusion popping up in some aspects of the game. Shit happens, right ? One just have to stay cool about it.

And no need to start a discussion thread about clarifying Gavelkind : that's actually something we're already talking about, to check internally to see where we're at exactly, where we want to be exactly and how to convey it properly in game (in the Wiki as well, by extension) so players can have a very clear idea of the order of inheritance.


Arthur

 

[kmh42]

Calm down man, nobody's trying to spite anyone, and I can assure you Gavelkind is as displeasing for players as it is for us : since the game is so old, team members have constantly been moving around and with retouching of features here and there, there is loss of information and confusion popping up in some aspects of the game. Shit happens, right ? One just have to stay cool about it.

And no need to start a discussion thread about clarifying Gavelkind : that's actually something we're already talking about, to check internally to see where we're at exactly, where we want to be exactly and how to convey it properly in game (in the Wiki as well, by extension) so players can have a very clear idea of the order of inheritance.


Arthur

So if I understand you correctly you evaluating gavelkind internally and hopefully we will see some improvements, of any kind, in a near or distant future, but no promises are made.
I am fine with that.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

.....

What do you say about the inheritance tab listing? This is definitely flawed.

Yup, my impression is now as well that there is something more fundamentaly bugged, than only one specific succession law.
I got some really werid inheritances with elective gavelkind where there were issues with the second row of heirs.
Too tired to describe now. Oh ..quite late or rather early already...Why am i awake at this time...*sigh*

Also one as tribal and elective gavelkind where the game does seems to ignore that one of my counts is my dynasty as i had his grandfather
matrimarry one of my daughters, but instead some guy of his grandfathers dynasty inherits.....
I don't recall that working as beforehand.

I will just assume for now that this issue is already fixed internally.