2.6.2 KADD Lost Capua due to inheritance despite having Controlled Inheritance Law

[SigurdStormhand]

I attach my save - this one had me confused, I thought that this had happened due to the Exarch of Sicily revoking Neopolis from the Strategos but careful examination of the dates shows that Capua passed outside my realm due to normal inheritance, despite my having Controlled Inheritance as a Crown Law and it being inside my Je Dure under a vassal Exarch.

I should add that I think this may have happened to me before this version of CKII, but I'm not sure.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

So today Dracko told me that apparently he loaded this save and Controlled Inheritence doesn't carry over?

That sounds like the cause of the bug.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

OK, I re-downloaded my own save and took a screenshot of my laws.

As you can see, it shows controlled inheritance - so something is off.

 

[Dracko81]

Seriously wish you didn't make me go looking for the conflicting information I had. Basically from all the information I have there is not a time when your empire controlled the county of Capua. The title was conquered as a claimant in 883 who was a vassal of a different realm. Which was then inherited twice internally of that realm. There is no evidence showing that the title was within your realm.

For a little bit of icing on the cake the save game I looked at first was actually a save game from a separate report. Which clearly shows that the county was not held by your realm by the previous ruler. This was the save game with the different law. When I checked the save game here the law is controlled the older game is free.

You never controlled the title, so it could never have passed from your realm. Now you might want to say that you pressed a de jure claim for the title and he became the vassal of your king vassal. But that could not have been the case. Since the previous ruler was a duke with several county holdings, a de jure war would have conquered the title away. There is quite literally no way I can see that you controlled the county of Capua, so it did not pass from your realm by inheritance.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

OK - first of all. I'm not an idiot, I wouldn't have posted this if I hadn't taken Capua. I did not, as you imply, imagine it. I can prove I took Capua, if you look at the save game title history you'll see I had a Strategos of Neopolis, I could only have formed that title if I had taken Capua.

What appears to have happened is that the current Duke of Ancona inherited Capua in 925, I took Capua from Frisia in 968 and created the Duchy of Neopolis, then in 980 the Count of Capua (vassal of Neopolis) inherits Ancona, thereby ceasing to be my vassal and becoming a vassal of Italy.

The Neopolis Ducal title still exists in the save, although the county of Neopolis was revoked after Capu passed from my realm.

Pics, in sequence:









From this you can clearly see the title passed outside the realm when the vassal of my vassal of my vassal inherited a higher title. Controlled Inheritance should prevent this.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Hi, I don't want to sound over entitled but I think I've done enough to demonstrate there's either a problem with the mechanics or they're not adequately explained.

I'd really just like to know if this is a bug or working as intended.

 

[Dracko81]

Hi, I don't want to sound over entitled but I think I've done enough to demonstrate there's either a problem with the mechanics or they're not adequately explained.

I'd really just like to know if this is a bug or working as intended.

It's on my list of things to break and replicate, but I noticed something else in the save game which was even stranger. I'm not going to have time for another month to do it properly though.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I think this actually happens a lot, it's just that mostly it happens within a realm - where a count inherits a higher title and takes his county with them.

Think about it - if you have controlled inheritance then you should get virtually no internal border gore. Every time time a count is in line to inherit a higher title he should either be disqualified or have to leave his original county with his Duke/King Overlord.

 

[Dracko81]

I think this actually happens a lot, it's just that mostly it happens within a realm - where a count inherits a higher title and takes his county with them.

Think about it - if you have controlled inheritance then you should get virtually no internal border gore. Every time time a count is in line to inherit a higher title he should either be disqualified or have to leave his original county with his Duke/King Overlord.

Yes it isn't supposed to happen that way. But replication seems temperamental and it is likely caused by the other thing I found.

You don't have control of inheritance internally though, that has never been a thing. Border gore existed in history, there is no reason to limit vassals rights to inheritance because of prettiness.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Yes it isn't supposed to happen that way. But replication seems temperamental and it is likely caused by the other thing I found.

Care to share?

You don't have control of inheritance internally though, that has never been a thing. Border gore existed in history, there is no reason to limit vassals rights to inheritance because of prettiness.

This has nothing to do with Prettiness at all. Think about it. Every Duchy is a "Realm" and every Kingdom is a "Realm", I would say every county is also a "Realm". I pass controlled inheritance as an Emperor then this should filter down to my vassal Kings and Dukes who are subject to the same Crown Laws, and even to their Counts.

Internal Border Gore suggests that that A: This Crown Law only applies to the top liege B: It has never worked properly.

If you look at the situation I created, what I actually did was brake off part of a Dynasty from its "parent" realm, so that inheritance that would normally have continued inside Italy instead was split between Italy and the ERE. So, normally this sort of thing would happen inside an Empire, and you'd go "oh, yay messy vassals." In reality that sort of thing shouldn't happen with controlled inheritance because no Dukes or Kings should be losing land to inheritance.

 

[Dracko81]

Care to share?

Not really there is a lot of overlapping mechanics and I need to do a fair amount of testing to demonstrate possible issues.

Internal Border Gore suggests that that A: This Crown Law only applies to the top liege B: It has never worked properly.

When I say realms, I mean independent realms. The law should stop transfer between independent realms, it does not stop internal transfer between vassals. I'm thinking about all the conditions involved in stopping an internal transfer and although you could probably do something simple, enforcing edge cases becomes difficult.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Not really there is a lot of overlapping mechanics and I need to do a fair amount of testing to demonstrate possible issues.

Uh huh. You realise these sorts of things are much easier with more testers, right? I'm not going to be impressed by your 3,000-hour claim here, either. A few posts back you tried to tell me I imagined taking Capua.

When I say realms, I mean independent realms. The law should stop transfer between independent realms, it does not stop internal transfer between vassals. I'm thinking about all the conditions involved in stopping an internal transfer and although you could probably do something simple, enforcing edge cases becomes difficult.

Should it only apply to Independent realms, though? That's like saying the laws preventing inter-vassal warfare should only apply to your direct vassals. The mechanics of this are not all that complicated. If you enforce the rule that no title should ever change liege then you just need to find the first heir who doesn't hold a title with a different liege. If that person later inherits a higher title in another realm they either retain the same liege, if possible, or they forfeit the lower title to the next valid heir.

This would probably lead to, say, the son of the Duke of Normandy usually being Earl of Somerset under the Duke of Wessex but that's not actually a problem as far as I'm concerned. Eventually the title would pass out of the direct line when it was inherited by a brother or uncle. That is how Feudal inheritance actually worked in reality in some cases, people had to forfeit titles in order to ascend to higher ones.

I'm convinced there's something wrong here, because a Dev hasn't come in yet to say this isn't a bug - and the more I think back the more I'm sure I saw exactly the same thing happen in Croatia under the same circumstances. Vassal inherits higher title, leaves realm.