2.5.1 inheritance issues

[romothecus]

Save game here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28726768/CK2 save games/Ironman_Tuscany.ck2

Couple problems with my current inheritance:

1) If you load the game you'll see I have A-C Ultimogeniture. Yet my heir isn't my youngest son. When I saved the game and exited my heir was randomly my 2nd youngest son (both are legitimate children).

2) However when I loaded it just now... one of my daughters was my heir. Weird.

3) Previously I had A-C Gavelkind. You can see that my eldest son is a mercenary; while I had A-C Gavelkind, he was NOT my heir (even though he should have been?) and was set to inherit no titles.

So there's definitely a few issues here.

 

[romothecus]

Oh and some issues with Favors:

4) My current husband is the HRE. I was able to buy a favor from him for 40g before he was emperor. Seems exploitly.

5) The HRE has Traditional gender rules. However, after my husband inherited the HRE, I was able to use my favor to force my way into the spymaster role (still have in the savegame) even though the gender laws should not have allowed it.

 

[Servancour]

Save game here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28726768/CK2 save games/Ironman_Tuscany.ck2

Couple problems with my current inheritance:

1) If you load the game you'll see I have A-C Ultimogeniture. Yet my heir isn't my youngest son. When I saved the game and exited my heir was randomly my 2nd youngest son (both are legitimate children).

2) However when I loaded it just now... one of my daughters was my heir. Weird.

3) Previously I had A-C Gavelkind. You can see that my eldest son is a mercenary; while I had A-C Gavelkind, he was NOT my heir (even though he should have been?) and was set to inherit no titles.

So there's definitely a few issues here.

I looked at your save, and my guess is that your youngest son won't inherit your titles because he is the heir of the Kaiser. Same with the second youngest son, as he is the heir of his grandfather. But I filed a bug report so that it can be looked at nonetheless.

Oh and some issues with Favors:

4) My current husband is the HRE. I was able to buy a favor from him for 40g before he was emperor. Seems exploitly.

5) The HRE has Traditional gender rules. However, after my husband inherited the HRE, I was able to use my favor to force my way into the spymaster role (still have in the savegame) even though the gender laws should not have allowed it.

4. Not something we are going to change at the moment. It might be considered an exploit, but it's also a risk you invest cause you never know if the character you have a favor on will actually inherit, or die before they inherit.

5. Wives and mothers are able to be spymaster even without the laws, just like before.

 

[romothecus]

I looked at your save, and my guess is that your youngest son won't inherit your titles because he is the heir of the Kaiser. Same with the second youngest son, as he is the heir of his grandfather. But I filed a bug report so that it can be looked at nonetheless.

Everything you say is correct but when has that ever stopped a child from being the player's heir? For 4 years it has been the case that the legitimate heir of two ruler-parents will inherit from both ruler-parents if he is eligible under the relevant laws.

edited for clarity

 

[romothecus]

5. Wives and mothers are able to be spymaster even without the laws, just like before.

Then the tooltip for Traditional gender laws is wrong, because it says woman can hold no jobs at all.

Further, Marginal gender laws says it allows closely related women to become Spymaster. So really that means just additionally sisters and daughters?

 

[dcd111]

4. Not something we are going to change at the moment. It might be considered an exploit, but it's also a risk you invest cause you never know if the character you have a favor on will actually inherit, or die before they inherit.

I actually like that this is possible, although maybe a designated heir should demand a little more for a favor, as they should know the additional value of it? It's really only an exploit if the AI isn't also trying to do this with heirs to their liege, so maybe that's what needs to be fixed? And it definitely is still a risk, I worked for a long time to put together the cash and opportunity to buy a favor from a fellow count who was heir to the duchy I'm under, and then he ended up not being the heir and has little else to offer me, at least at the moment.

 

[romothecus]

I actually like that this is possible, although maybe a designated heir should demand a little more for a favor, as they should know the additional value of it? It's really only an exploit if the AI isn't also trying to do this with heirs to their liege, so maybe that's what needs to be fixed? And it definitely is still a risk, I worked for a long time to put together the cash and opportunity to buy a favor from a fellow count who was heir to the duchy I'm under, and then he ended up not being the heir and has little else to offer me, at least at the moment.

It's actually a similar problem to the old Assassination button. At one point, you could assassinate any unlanded courtier for 25 gold, including the heir to an empire. However, it cost more (300g?) to assassinate an emperor (with varying stages in the middle).

People quickly realized that if you wanted to assassinate your way to the throne, it was vastly cheaper to assassinate heirs, not the ruler. So Paradox changed it so that the Assassination cost was based not just on title, but on family/inheritance.

That's clearly what needs to happen here. I shouldn't be able to buy a 40g favor from someone just because they haven't inherited the HRE yet.

 

[dcd111]

It's actually a similar problem to the old Assassination button. At one point, you could assassinate any unlanded courtier for 25 gold, including the heir to an empire. However, it cost more (300g?) to assassinate an emperor (with varying stages in the middle).

People quickly realized that if you wanted to assassinate your way to the throne, it was vastly cheaper to assassinate heirs, not the ruler. So Paradox changed it so that the Assassination cost was based not just on title, but on family/inheritance.

That's clearly what needs to happen here. I shouldn't be able to buy a 40g favor from someone just because they haven't inherited the HRE yet.

This is a good point, I agree that it would make more sense for heirs to demand nearly as much as the liege they will one day replace, although maybe with some discount for the risk and foresight involved. Or maybe they should mostly refuse to sell favors at all, since they know the value of those favors will go up significantly some day, unless they really need the money right now.

I think the whole mechanic of buying favors was not the ideal way to handle this in the first place, though. It seems a bit gamey and is too similar to the "send gift" mechanic. I would prefer it if a character who needs gold had to be the one to initiate these transactions, rather than the one trying to buy a favor. It should be more like how borrowing money from a holy order works. Realistically, who would be willing to sell a favor to a buyer who approaches them if they don't really, really need that money? The one who is sacrificing long term goals for a short term gain should be the one initiating the transaction, just as you are doing when you ask for support on the council, etc.