• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
The title says for itself. I'm in a mid or late game, I check the desmene limit of others countries, and I see that none of them used centralization to raise their desmene limit. It is so very easy for the player to get 6 or 7 possessions when most of others lands only control 3 or 4, even biggest empires. It's a severe penalty to the AI's strength. Personnaly I consider that's a major bug, because the game has now very less challenge. I sure would play more and buy some DLC If I only had the assurance of a fix.

I play without any DLC nor mods.

I saw here that a guy had the same problem with older version 2.3.2 and reported here. I hope a upcoming patch will finally correct that.
Thanks
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Upvote 0

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Since it has already been reported, there is no need to create a new thread about it.

The assumption that more personal demesne is better compared to more vassals though, seems to be contrary to the AI's playstyle. Forcing the AI to increase centralisation would have detrimental effects on the AI's stability.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
But the centralization has no negative effects, so why would the AI no use it? And I think I remember that before the system of centralization, the AI could had more desmene just because of the legalism tech.
 

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
At centralisation 0, you have +10 vassal limit. Everytime it is increased you gain +1 demesne and -5 vassal limit.

At centralisation 4, you have -10 vassal limit. So for large realms, if you force the AI to increase centralisation it would cause the realm to dis-stablise. Since the AI's playstyle revolves around as many vassals as possible, increasing centralisation for the AI is not optimal.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
But even duchies don't centralise, even if they have 2/2 desmene and 1 or 2/20 vassals
I just saw that: the SERG with desmene 5/5 and vassa limit 28/43. He usurped one county: he was so 6/5 desmene, so one level up to centralisation would have been ok with the vassal limit. But he didn't, he gave that county to a courtier.
It reminds me some bug in EUIII, finally solved: the countries were never switch another political government, so there always was lots of feudal monarchies around 1750, instead of absolute ones, republican despotism, etc. The AI weren't adapted to the evolution in gameplay. Same thing here...
 

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Reworking the AI currently isn't on the cards as far as I know. And adding minor optimisations to the use of centralisation laws would be quite an extensive change.

But since the AI's optimised to maximise vassal use, the change is not really necessary at present.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I don't think it's a minor optimisation, because it's big part of the gameplay: the idea would be to tend to stronger and more centralised powers, like in history.
If the player is the only character of the game who try to tend to that, it's boring, and unchallenging. Even if I play just a duke, if my king doesn't try to eat me thanks to his desmene limit, it remove difficulty.
And even more boring because it's just cause of the addition of this centralisation. Things were better when just legalism was sufficient to raise the desmene: the AI tried to do that. But not now, and that's a shame. Really, isn't it some "use_centralization=true" function in the settings? X)
 

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Why do you think people currently have issues with the AI muslims? The Abbassids, use low centralisation, allowing them to have more vassals than someone with high centralisation.

If an empire with low centralisation can have 50 vassals Vs an empire with max centralisation having 30 vassals. Since the AI runs with 50 vassals and you run with 30 vassals, they are in a far better situation. If you force the AI to increase centralisation, you are essentially limiting the growth of AI empires and decrease the stability of their realms.

High centralisation is not actually better for large realms or realms looking to expand.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
OK, maybe. But the fact is that the AI never centralise. Never. Nope. Nothing. Ahah. Even more, bots are most of time below their limit. You see, maybe high centralisation isn't always an ideal as you talk. But it's boring if no one use it. Imagine what if no one would raise the crown autorithy? Or their taxes?
Then, the situation is that no even a duke tend to growth. They have 1 or 2 holdings, 3 or 4 vassals, plenty of non-used vassal limit.
OK, it seems logic if you want that big empires tend to be decentralised. But the little kings and independant duchies would have to do the opposite.
 

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
All the AI's operate using the same bot mechanics as far as I am aware. Adding additional bot types would be nice, but that requires a very large overhaul.

Additionally the AI doesn't increase taxes. It doesn't affect any laws other than tribal and CA. Since everything else to optimised to work with the set basics. If you go and change an AIs laws, it will not go and change them.

Yes if they have 20 spare vassal limit spaces, increasing centralisation, could allow them to hold more land, but when they increase in rank, they would only then lower it to allow for more vassals. Overall making no real difference to previous rank. All centralisation does is allow for more personal demesne, which for the AI isn't really important.

Adding centralisation checks to the AI's code would then need to be added, increasing daily computations, as to whether or not to change laws. You would then also need to add calculations to optimise the AI at every interval of its growth with every law. Which would than further increase computations. At what point do you stopp adding these? Do not forget that each computation needs to be done for every AI in the game, including vassals. Although an AI overhaul has been suggested for the future, such changes here could lead to detrimental effects on game performance.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

KhaineFH

First Lieutenant
29 Badges
Mar 28, 2014
227
134
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
All the AI's operate using the same bot mechanics as far as I am aware. Adding additional bot types would be nice, but that requires a very large overhaul.
Very large overhaul, seriously ?? I'm not a coder at all, but is it so complicated to add a condition such as :
"if number of vassals = max vassals limit - 10 ; increase centralization ". This way big blobs which are near there vassals limit would not increase their centralization, on the contrary to kingdoms with 5/30 vassals which could increase it. I suggested the -10 so that it would not be likely for IA to be over its limit and suffer the condequnces.

Additionally the AI doesn't increase taxes. It doesn't affect any laws other than tribal and CA. Since everything else to optimised to work with the set basics. If you go and change an AIs laws, it will not go and change them.
What is your point here ? Don't touch anything, all is WAD ? Clearly not, AI should always tend to squeeze as much gold and troops from their vassals, as long they are happy (i.e. no factions).

Yes if they have 20 spare vassal limit spaces, increasing centralisation, could allow them to hold more land, but when they increase in rank, they would only then lower it to allow for more vassals. Overall making no real difference to previous rank. All centralisation does is allow for more personal demesne, which for the AI isn't really important.
Not really important, again ?? Sesiously AI is trash in this game, and preventing them from increasing centralization make them even poorer. With a small demesne, all they have is a small income and ridiculously small personal levies, which means they can't build as much buildings as they could, they tend to be the target of many civil wars, they cannot send gift to their vassals to make them happier... Besides, unless it has an empire title, I almost never see AI grow big in most of my games, so I highly doubt they would have to decrease their centralization. Ever.
For instance, 99 time out of 100 Kings never marry highborn princess, they will pick a random lowborn imbecile lunatic amateurish plotter girl, who will not grant interesting claims to her children. That's one of the reasons why in my games, during roughtly 300 years, K_England would keeps its de jure border, with a vassals limit not even close from half.....

Adding centralisation checks to the AI's code would then need to be added, increasing daily computations, as to whether or not to change laws. You would then also need to add calculations to optimise the AI at every interval of its growth with every law. Which would than further increase computations. At what point do you stopp adding these? Do not forget that each computation needs to be done for every AI in the game, including vassals. Although an AI overhaul has been suggested for the future, such changes here could lead to detrimental effects on game performance.
Again, a bigger demesne for both Dukes/Kings means less count-tier characters. Which is not bad at all and might even increase game speed eventually, thanks to less courtiers and less interactions.
Moreover I think it could balance the game quite a bit, between Kingdoms and Empires : an Emperor would have to rely more on his vassals to get troops and income because of his low centralization, while on the contrary small/medium kingdoms/dukedoms, with their high centralization and their better income could benefit of it and be a decent threat to Empires. It's always easier to manage something small you know, and if you grow too big, you will have corruption everywhere, less tax efficiency, less control over your vassals, etc, basically what happened to the huge Roman Empire blob.
 

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Very large overhaul, seriously ?? I'm not a coder at all, but is it so complicated to add a condition such as :
"if number of vassals = max vassals limit - 10 ; increase centralization ". This way big blobs which are near there vassals limit would not increase their centralization, on the contrary to kingdoms with 5/30 vassals which could increase it. I suggested the -10 so that it would not be likely for IA to be over its limit and suffer the condequnces.

Very large overhaul to introduce new bot types. Since you don't seem to understand how AI works here is a quick example. Each ruler in the game is an AI - that is thousands of AI's. Each AI is a bot and on a daily computations are done according to a scripted list.

What I said was that creating a new bot was a very large overhaul, since you would need to first create and then assign a new bot to each individual AI.

Adding that particular logic could indeed work, but as I said earlier it would not make that big a difference. Because once they increase their vassal count they would need to make room. So the addition of more personal demesne wouldn't help in the long run and the short term gains, wouldn't be that great. So adding the 1,000s of calculations a day would give the AI a slight increase in performance, which you likely wouldn't see, whilst increasing CPU requirements and slowing the game.

What is your point here ? Don't touch anything, all is WAD ? Clearly not, AI should always tend to squeeze as much gold and troops from their vassals, as long they are happy (i.e. no factions).

The increase in any gains from adding these into the AI's logic would, as mentioned before decrease game performance. The AI's playstyle is based on using the base tax and levy laws. Increasing a tax, decreases opinion, which means additional calculations need to take place at each day to optimise performance of the AI. The AI's balance of opinion is based on the normal levels.

Not really important, again ?? Sesiously AI is trash in this game, and preventing them from increasing centralization make them even poorer. With a small demesne, all they have is a small income and ridiculously small personal levies, which means they can't build as much buildings as they could, they tend to be the target of many civil wars, they cannot send gift to their vassals to make them happier... Besides, unless it has an empire title, I almost never see AI grow big in most of my games, so I highly doubt they would have to decrease their centralization. Ever.
For instance, 99 time out of 100 Kings never marry highborn princess, they will pick a random lowborn imbecile lunatic amateurish plotter girl, who will not grant interesting claims to her children. That's one of the reasons why in my games, during roughtly 300 years, K_England would keeps its de jure border, with a vassals limit not even close from half.....

Yet the Abbassids seem to be quite stable using the current low centralisation. This as I said before is because the AI is designed to operate best with low centralisation. You need to take performance into consideration when making any change to an AI.

Again, a bigger demesne for both Dukes/Kings means less count-tier characters. Which is not bad at all and might even increase game speed eventually, thanks to less courtiers and less interactions.
Moreover I think it could balance the game quite a bit, between Kingdoms and Empires : an Emperor would have to rely more on his vassals to get troops and income because of his low centralization, while on the contrary small/medium kingdoms/dukedoms, with their high centralization and their better income could benefit of it and be a decent threat to Empires. It's always easier to manage something small you know, and if you grow too big, you will have corruption everywhere, less tax efficiency, less control over your vassals, etc, basically what happened to the huge Roman Empire blob.

Obviously the removal of bots will increase performance, but you simply can't just add a single calculation to the AI and walk away. It is not as simple as that.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Talq

Field Marshal
51 Badges
Sep 7, 2009
4.795
1.007
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Leaving aside that this thread probably shouldn't be in bug reports, I don't think anybody seriously thinks dukes with 1/1 demense and 20+ possible vassals is 'optimised for playing with maximum vassals' (and obvious solutions like, if we need the AI to play like this to play large empires, then why not simply have 2 bot types, one for them and one for everybody else?)

(Why is it not 'optimised for playing with maximum vassals'? It would be destroyed by factions if it seriously had 20 vassals and one demense).

Anyway, I'm sure QA has seen enough to work out if there is a 'bug' here, and both they and the devs are quite capable of responding for themselves.
 

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Well, if adding bots types is so worrying for the performances, I think we could say the same thing about many improvements done to CKII, like the adding of water details, adding of India and his thousand of charachters, etc. Oh, wait, for this last it came along with a paying dlc? OK, I see...
Boring when devs works more on dlc and sequels instead of bug's fixes. Remember me Cossaks II: that's the the most bugged game in the whole world, but they don't care and do an extension instead of fix the bugs...
 

KhaineFH

First Lieutenant
29 Badges
Mar 28, 2014
227
134
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
Yet the Abbassids seem to be quite stable using the current low centralisation. This as I said before is because the AI is designed to operate best with low centralisation. You need to take performance into consideration when making any change to an AI.

It's not the AI which is designed to work this way, it's the big blob empires, which are forced to rely on this law.
Actually AI is terrible at dealing with vassals limit. Even with all their buff (Sayyd, Caliphat title, no malus opinion with vassals desiring the title), Abbasids won't keep their empire together because of the decadence growing too high, they will eventually be over the vassals limit, have less troops/income and explode in dozens of independants realms if the decadence revolt does not succeed in usurping the throne.
And it works the same for HRE and ERE, but without decadence and thanks to the same kind of bonus they get, it's far less likely for them to explode.

I though I had been clear enough, but apparently not. I was not talking about Empire-tier rulers.
My main concern is the fact that Kings and Dukes don't increase their centralization, NEVER, even if they have only 10 out of 30 possible vassals. Why wouldn't they increase it ? They are already not as stable as the three most common empires, increasing their demesne size would make them more powerful compared to their vassals, hence their realm would have a better internal stability, hence they could focus on attacking foreign realms. It would help kingdoms such as France or England in 1066 for example, which are usually plagued by civil wars shortly after respectively the HRE De Jure war for Gent or William's conquest. And these are only two examples, you can already find loads of weak kings in any games at any times.

And it's the same for vassal-dukes, they should make everything possible to have the largest demesne and be strong enough to contest the power of their liege if they don't like him. But nope, as long as they have the du jure capital of their duchy they are fine. The game is already too easy once you know the mechanics, don't make it even easier. AI should always tend to the highest centralization, as long as its vassals limit allow it to do so.


And speaking of performance is a laughable argument. So you would not fix what is obviously broken, only because it would potentially worsen already poor performances ? Meanwhile you add a whole continent and an extented timeline, because the more the merrier. I don't think adding even more content is the top priority right now, it's the quality aspect of the game which should be worked on first, not the quantity, I don't get why you insist on not fixing this broken core mechanic...
 

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
That's the point: CKII is very complex, but not so difficult. Because of this bug. Once you acquired the basics, once you passed the very first decades as a weak king, you can easily continue to rule your kingdom "la main dans le slip" as we says, us the frog-eaters ahah. Because we face no seriously strong vassals, and no serious concurrents kingdoms or empires.
So please, stop to make DLC after DLC. CK2 is not supposed to be an Europa Universalis clone. We don't play it to expect to play absolutely all civilisations on the world from the dawnfall of Rome to the discover of America. We play it to be immerged in the feudality -which, it has to be said, didn't exist on this form during the time of Charlemagne ahah. And this major part of the gameplay is actually very broken because of this AI weakness.
 

Jirki88

Captain
79 Badges
Apr 2, 2015
451
589
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Magicka
  • Lead and Gold
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
That's the point: CKII is very complex, but not so difficult. Because of this bug. Once you acquired the basics, once you passed the very first decades as a weak king, you can easily continue to rule your kingdom "la main dans le slip" as we says, us the frog-eaters ahah. Because we face no seriously strong vassals, and no serious concurrents kingdoms or empires.
So please, stop to make DLC after DLC. CK2 is not supposed to be an Europa Universalis clone. We don't play it to expect to play absolutely all civilisations on the world from the dawnfall of Rome to the discover of America. We play it to be immerged in the feudality -which, it has to be said, didn't exist on this form during the time of Charlemagne ahah. And this major part of the gameplay is actually very broken because of this AI weakness.

While the AI certainly isn't trying to increase their personal demesne particularly much if they're at the limit... They always try to expand their influence. They gladly take another duke title if they can to fill up their vassal limit. If left unchecked you can easily get vassal dukes or kings that have hit the vassal limit without a problem. And a vassal duke/king with 10/30 vassals... well... increasing his demesne won't make much of a difference against his liege regardless, since either he loses vassals by revoking their title to take for his own, or he tries to expand, which is better motivated by filling up the vassal limit already?
 

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
The fact is that its always best to expand his desmene. I have a game as king of Aragon: I expanded, and thats a relatively little territory now. But I have now 7/7 desmene, own two duchies and none of my vassals is more than a baron. The result? My vassal limit is 0/20 so I can get full centralisation, and I get more troops and more income than some great kingdom like France or Angleterre.
 

Dracko81

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
7.030
1.950
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
The fact is that its always best to expand his desmene. I have a game as king of Aragon: I expanded, and thats a relatively little territory now. But I have now 7/7 desmene, own two duchies and none of my vassals is more than a baron. The result? My vassal limit is 0/20 so I can get full centralisation, and I get more troops and more income than some great kingdom like France or Angleterre.
That is your opinion, based on how you play. The AI doesn't play like that though. It will never be happy to play king, it will look to fill its vassal limit and progress in rank. Increasing centralisation to having very few vassals puts limitations in place that makes that harder.

Well, if adding bots types is so worrying for the performances, I think we could say the same thing about many improvements done to CKII, like the adding of water details, adding of India and his thousand of charachters, etc. Oh, wait, for this last it came along with a paying dlc? OK, I see...
Boring when devs works more on dlc and sequels instead of bug's fixes. Remember me Cossaks II: that's the the most bugged game in the whole world, but they don't care and do an extension instead of fix the bugs...
I never said adding more AI types affected performance, just that it would be a major overhaul of the current AI. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Considering the devs are currently working on tech upgrades and bug fixes as mentioned numerous times on the forums already, you should hopefully see some inprovements. Additionally every recent major release has come with performance optimisations.
 

Chuchup

Private
3 Badges
Apr 14, 2015
12
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Oh oh, of course yes you really said that. You don't remember?

Adding centralisation checks to the AI's code would then need to be added, increasing daily computations, as to whether or not to change laws. You would then also need to add calculations to optimise the AI at every interval of its growth with every law. Which would than further increase computations. At what point do you stopp adding these? Do not forget that each computation needs to be done for every AI in the game, including vassals. Although an AI overhaul has been suggested for the future, such changes here could lead to detrimental effects on game performance.